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Intermittent CBM 8032 Power on Issue

miraco

Experienced Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2015
Messages
81
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US - Louisville
Hello everyone, I'm looking for some opinions as to the cause of an intermittent issue I am having with an 8032 machine. Most of the time when I power on the machine it does so the normal way, but occasionally it doesn't, with either a dark screen or bright raster dot which fades away.

Any troubleshooting suggestions are most welcome!
 
I don't have the schematic on hand, but it suggests that the VDU is getting powered, for a while at least, receiving no vertical drive pulses, but enough at least some pulses initially on the Horizontal drive to have developed some EHT voltage (or you would have not seen the dot- assuming it is near the screen center ?) The dot means that there is no V scan and no H scan but there must have been some EHT and auxiliary voltages from the H output transformer to power the CRT at least briefly. The dot is seen at power down on some PETs, it represents stored charges sustaining some CRT beam current, so it may well be there is an intermittent connection in your power switch or line fuse. Also worth checking the VDU's connector. The soldering to the pins on these is quite brittle and they can get ring shaped fractures, it could be it is just the VDU itself losing its power feed after a time.

To see the dot at all means the CRT heater has warmed up. This means there is line power being applied to the power transformer, via the line switch & fuse for at least some seconds, but you can put the meter , set on AC volts, on any of the line transformer's output windings to see if they stay up after switch on.

The thing to do initially, when the fault condition is present, is always the first step in diagnosing a fault:

As mentioned main transformer receiving power.

Check the VDU power voltage out of the regulator, I think 18V on these PETs.

Check that the computer board has a solid feed connection to the transformer and there is no issue with the wiring and connectors.

Check the power supply voltages on the board. The +5v regulator outputs and the +12V etc. Make sure all the IC's are receiving power.

You could always check the CPU is being reset, but even if it wasn't, there should still be H & V drive pulses sent to the VDU

If the above are ok, then the next lot of checks would be to find out why the PET board was not sending H & V drive pulses to the VDU, starting at the beginning that the crystal oscillator is working and going through the logic circuits after that with the scope. Sometimes if a crystal is going low activity, the main oscillator will start sometimes and not others. However IC's can exhibit intermittent effects too.
 
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>>> You could always check the CPU is being reset, but even if it wasn't, there should still be H & V drive pulses sent to the VDU.

The 8032 has a CRTC, so in the event of the CPU not being reset properly, there probably will not be any H or V drive signals.

Dave
 
>>> You could always check the CPU is being reset, but even if it wasn't, there should still be H & V drive pulses sent to the VDU.

The 8032 has a CRTC, so in the event of the CPU not being reset properly, there probably will not be any H or V drive signals.

Dave
Good point. I am so used to my PET without the CRTC.
 
Thanks guys, I will check voltages when the next power on failure occurs. it powered on fine this morning. Seems like maybe a component close to the edge, but I may pull the transformer assembly and clean switch and check contacts.
 
What is the consensus opinion on replacing the electrolytic caps on the system board while replacing the 4700 uF cap?
 
What is the consensus opinion on replacing the electrolytic caps on the system board while replacing the 4700 uF cap?
I'm not sure if there is a consensus, because some people seem to replace electrolytic capacitors on sight without diagnostic testing and this behavior is reinforced because they then have no or few capacitor issues, but they don't know the outcome if they had just left them alone, or the outcome with targeted replacements. There are a number of forks in the road and if you go down one, you cannot always turn around and go back for a different choice and evaluate the two outcomes.

On the PET boards I have worked on there was no need at all to replace the electrolytics on the motherboard, including the 4700uF. Though if there are blue Tant capacitors on there (some have these) they should be replaced as they short out from time to time.

If you are concerned, the electrolytic ones are easily checked in circuit with an ESR meter. You will likely find they are all ok. This approach is better than global replacements. Especially in the light of the fact there are many poor quality electrolytic caps around now, not as good as the aged original parts. Though you cannot go too far wrong especially if you used Nichicon or Panasonic 105 Deg C rated types.

The main 23,000 uF filter cap sometimes needs replacing. It is difficult to test because of its very large uF value and generally low ESR. It is better checked in circuit looking at the ripple voltage across its terminals and making sure that before recharge by the diodes, that the output voltage has not troughed down so low that ripple is about to break through to the 5V regulator outputs.

Some people try to re-form these large uF value capacitors and some improvement can be had, but my view is if an electrolytic cap shows up defective on testing it should be renewed not rejuvenated because trouble awaits around the corner.

Another indirect method is to put the PET on a Variac and lower the line voltage until ripple appears in the video. Ideally it would not, even with a 10 to 15% reduction in line voltage. In my pet it appeared with a 3 to 5% reduction below 230v, so sometimes the ripple appeared and not other times, depending on the time of day and the exact line voltage. This problem (a sick 23,000uF capacitor) also causes the vertical picture bounce effect that can come and go. When you look at the voltage across the capacitor, a meter shows the average value, not as helpful, it needs the scope on DC coupling to see what it is troughing down to between recharges.
 
Your feedback is much appreciated. I have checked the transformer AC voltages and resultant DC on J8 connector. As a further test I have configured the machine with a 4032 universal board with patched edit rom resulting in a Fat40 machine that has been stable, exhibiting no issues. I have also checked the ESR values of the capacitors on the SuperPet board and they appear to be within acceptable ranges. For troubleshooting further I will need to power up the board preferably on the bench. Does anyone have advice on the best way to do this? I don’t have a spare machine to use for it and would rather keep the Fat40 machine functional.
 
It might depend on the variant of the PET. For mine it requires a +12v, two +5V and one -12V for the DRAM array. All these are from onboard regulators. So you could power those, prior to those regulators by DC supplies that are at least a few volts higher and have the required current sourcing capability. I wouldn't apply any power at the regulator outputs without disconnecting them.

And another thing to think about is, if you are setting up some alternative "power supply system", you raise the possibility of an over-voltage or worse a reverse polarity accident destroying multiple chips. There was one PET repair where so many chips were damaged in the field of one of the +5v regulators, I had wondered whether this sort of of thing may have happened, or possibly an input-output regulator short from debris on the bench.

All in all I would recommend that you simply made an extension power edge connector-cable with heavy wire that you can use to run your board on the bench from the transformer & external capacitor arrangement in the PET housing that you could move away on the bench, and there are less likely to be any accidents that way.
 
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Hugo, yeah you’re right. I will move the board to the SuperPet for testing. The last thing I need is to fry it with stupid PS tricks! 😁. After swapping the board in, I plan to do some voltage checks on it using information provided by Daver2 in a previous thread last year. I feel confident that the PS up to the J8 connector is good to go. I will report my findings. Once the universal board is stable I will move on to the SPet 6809 board.
 
I am the following voltage readings on the board this morning:

External cap 2.1V
J8 P2 2.1V
J8 P4 2.1V
J10 P4 20V
J11 P1 2.1V
J10 P1 11.4V

The 2.1V readings were higher last night at 7.4V

Are there other locations to check that would shed light on the failing component(s)?
 
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What are you measuring the voltage relative to?

To measure a voltage you put the voltmeter between two pins. What is the other pin you were using?

For example, J8 pins 2 to 3 (2 positive and 3 negative) should read a minimum of 7.5V and a maximum of 9V. These are DC voltages.

All of the J pins that should be reading the same voltage are all reading 2.1V - and this is completely wrong.

Measure the AC voltage between J8 pins 1 and 5. It should be between 16V and 18V (note AC not DC, this is directly from the transformer).

Also, measure the AC Voltage between J8 pins 3 and 1, and also between J8 pins 3 and 5. Each measurement should be half that between pins 1 and 5.

Dave
 
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The readings were made relative to ground on the board. The AC voltages from the transformer are good.
J8 1-5 = 17,6VAC
J8 1-3 = 8.9VAC
J8 3-5 = 8.9VAC
J8 2-3 = 2.1VDC
 
Ok. So the transformer is good.

With the power OFF, and the machine dead for 5 minutes or so, disconnect J8 from the board.

Do you know how to check for a working full-wave bridge rectifier using a multimeter (set to read resistance) between J8 pins 1, 4 and 5 and J10 pin 1?

Dave
 
No problem.

Let's take four (4) resistance measurements on J8.

The + indicates the positive lead of the multimeter. The - indicates the negative lead of the multimeter. The associated number indicates the pin number of J8. Set the multimeter to read between 1k and 10k full-scale.

1+ and 4-.
4+ and 1-.
5+ and 4-.
4+ and 5-.

Post the resistance reading for each of the four measurements.

Dave
 
Those readings are not right at all...

A, they can't be negative and B, the readings of 0 and 4.5 Ohms do not make any sense.

What are you doing wrong I am asking myself?

Dave
 
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