Attempting to copy files between diskettes - Model 1 NewDOS 80/v2

[Biff]

Back in the day, I only had a single drive system, so whenever I copied a file from one disk to another, it required lots of swapping.

Fast forward to the future, and now I have Peter Bartlett's MIRE and two floppy drives.
I'm using a standard 5.25 40 track single sided and a 3.5 720k drive.

I have PDRIVE settings as follows on my boot disk:

0 TI=CK, TD=E, TC=40, TSR=3, GPL=2, DDSL=17, DDGA=2

1 TI=C, TD=G, TC=80, SPT=18, TSR=3, GPL=2, DDSL=17, DDGA=2

I'm using a standard Model 1 "toothless" cable configured for Drive 0 and Drive 1.

NewDOS/80 v2 boots perfectly on the 5.25" drive 0, and I was able to format a disk in drive 1 - so I am *ASSUMING* drive 1 is working properly.
(I haven't messed with any jumpers on the 3.5" drive 1 - it seems to be working since the format verify passes)

I have tried to copy the files from 0 to 1 via:


COPY 0 1 09/10/17 CBF USR NFMT NDMW

It starts the copy process

and then errors out with:

ERROR WHILE VERIFYING DESTINATION SECTOR 0
WITHIN FILE "SOME FILE"

Am I using the wrong syntax for two drives?
Is my cable or drive hardware configuration (3.5) causing the problem?

If FORMAT works - doesn't it mean I have the hardware configuration correct?

suggestions appreciated (besides switch to LDOS - blech ;-) )

Jim

 

[Audronic]

Hi Jim

after you format the disk in drive 1 (80) Track, issue the command " FREE " to see the size of drive 1 ??
You will need all the pins in the cable otherwise the second side will not be seen ??
Good Luck

Ray

 

[Biff]

After formatting the drive - there are (supposedly) 288 grans free with 3 being in use due to BOOT/SYS and DIR/SYS

When I created the cable, I pulled pins 32, 10, (12 or 14) depending on the position.

I wasn't sure which pin was side select - the only reference I could find was a web page for adding 3.5" drives to a Model III.

If pin 32 *IS* side select, it may be possible that only side 0 of the 3.5" disk was formatted - 2x and verified 2x?

I can replace the connector for D1 with one that has pins 10 and 14 removed or pins 10 and 12 removed. (Can't remember which is D0 and which is D1 w/out referring to a spare 4 disk cable I keep around)

 

[lafos]

I'd recommend using a cable with all pins intact. Set drive select (DS) jumpers on the drives. Does the 3.5" drive have jumpers? Was it from a PC? if so, DS1 is the norm. You also need to be able to change DC to RDY (detect change to ready).

 

[Tibs]

32 was used on a Model I for drive 3 OR side select which is why you can't have a drive 3 if you are using double sided drives, not sure which one was used on a Model III. I've seen a few drives with 32 jumpered to a different spot, probably to be backwards compatible with the Model I.

Put 32 back in. The pull up resistor on the ready line was the solution I used, but you wouldn't be able to format if it if that was the issue, it would fail immediately.

 

[ldkraemer]

Jim,
If your 3.5" Floppy is strapped for Drive Select 1 (0,1,2,3) then it should work if you pull Pin 2 of the 3.5" Floppy LOW.

I typically use a small ADAPTER (MALE Edge Card to 34 Pin Female) as my Signal conversion board. I created some PCB's and
jumper or cut what I need to get the interface correct. That way I have a Cable with all 34 Conductors & Pins from the FDC
to my Adapter Board. And the Adapter attaches to the 3.5" floppy for a quick and easy conversion of Signals.

Pin 32 of the Model 1 (EI) is DS3, and isn't correct on the following .PNG because that PNG is for Model 3 & 4. But, you get the idea.

If you would like one or two Adapters I can supply them for a small fee to pay for PCB, Connector, and postage.

See the attached .png file.



Larry

 

[Biff]

32 was used on a Model I for drive 3 OR side select which is why you can't have a drive 3 if you are using double sided drives, not sure which one was used on a Model III. I've seen a few drives with 32 jumpered to a different spot, probably to be backwards compatible with the Model I.

Put 32 back in. The pull up resistor on the ready line was the solution I used, but you wouldn't be able to format if it if that was the issue, it would fail immediately.

Making a new connector with just 10 & 14 missing fixed it.
Pin 32 was the key.

I just found it odd that the verify after the format worked, I guess it can't tell one side of the disk from another in that operation.

thanks!

 

[Tibs]

So I had the same thing last weekend happen to me. I was testing out two double sided drives with a cable that had pulled 32. I was writing to them and things were going good then the disk got corrupted. Hmm, let me try that again. After third time I realized I was using an old cable. (Model I with a MIRE as well).

Hell half the time I was forgetting to type in DDEN and finally sysgenned it.

Remember, Peter warned us quite a bit, since you have a double sided drive, you are not able to use 3 and DS at the same time. In fact, when side two is selected, you'll get a select light on that drive and drive 3 at the same time. At least I did on my rig.

 

[Biff]

Well,
the copying worked great with the new connector - but when I attempted to execute the /cmd files I was copying over, I ran into more snags.

Half of the files worked as expected.

The other half would immediately error out with:

"CAN"T EXTEND FILE VIA READ" (I'm sure this error message makes perfect sense to the person who wrote it - but to me - nada)

Dunno if this error message is specific to NewDOS/80 vs2.0 or not - this is the only DOS I've ever used...

The CMD files that give me this error load just fine off the 35 year old floppies I'm trying to preserve on 3.5" disks...

I haven't messed with any jumpers on the 3.5 drive yet - since it SEEMED like it was working, but I'm sure it was last used on PC clone.

I don't foresee a need to ever use more than 3 drives. Once I upgrade my MIRE, I plan on booting off an emulated drive 0, and remapping my current drive 0 and 1 to 1 and 2.

 

[Tibs]

That sounds very much like what I had happen when it thought it was reading and writing to side two but it wasn’t. Are the pins in according to the drawing above? Remember to put a 1K on pin 2 tied to common. I’ve used brand new 3.5 floppy’s with that wiring setup and never had an issue.

These machines cant tell which side they are on, or don’t check them, something Roy Soltoff wrote about in the first LDOSQuarterly that is available in PDF on Tim Mann’s website.

Do you have a copy of SU+ 3.2? It supported Double Sided drives and you could see if sectors 18-36 are the same as 0-17 on a given track. Sure way to tell if its reading from side 0 or 1.

 

[Audronic]

@Biff

Are we still talking about Newdos (ONLY)

What drive are you reading the files from ? Tracks - Sides etc.
Extend via READ's fault is coming from the Source disk ?
Are the Pdrives correct for the Source driver is the disk the same as the drive 40 - 40 80 - 80 No double stepping etc.
Bypass MIRE, just use the machine as a standard Model 1 ( I assume you have an Expansion Interface ).

Good luck

Ray

 

[Biff]

Are we still talking about Newdos (ONLY)

Yes - NewDos/80 version 2.0

What drive are you reading the files from ? Tracks - Sides etc.

5.25" drive 0, 40 track, SSDD

Extend via READ's fault is coming from the Source disk ?

No - the errors appear after finishing the copy process.

Copy Process:
Boot from System Disk in drive 0
execute copy command
Swap System Disk with Source Disk

wait for copy to finish

Swap Source Disk back with System Disk.

Check contents of drive 1 (3.5" 720K)
Attempt to load a CMD program.
1/2 of them would give the extend error.

Are the Pdrives correct for the Source driver is the disk the same as the drive 40 - 40 80 - 80 No double stepping etc.

Yes

Bypass MIRE, just use the machine as a standard Model 1 ( I assume you have an Expansion Interface ).

I do - have two EI's - but at this time, I have greater trust in the MIRE - I haven't done much testing of the EI's yet.


Jim

 

[Biff]

As an update, last night I changed the PDRIVE setting for drive 1 (3.5") to just show it as being Single Sided.
Everything I copied to it worked nice.
I'm going to leave it like this until I have time to muck with any jumpers etc on it.

I'm in the middle of attempting to upgrade my MIRE from the firmware that shipped with it (May) to the latest stuff - and I needed the 3.5" working to hold the PIC Hex file.
I'm pretty sure the setup is working properly now - with it being configured to only use 1 side.
At least the hex loader validated the file OK.

 

[Tibs]

Yeah, your after writing issues is exactly what I had happen. No errors until a few files copied then ugh.

I upgraded mine, be sure you follow his instructions. If you don't USB-blast the FPGA don't do the PIC.

For the record, same issue with my EI and percom doubler.

 

[Audronic]

@Biff
Hi Jim
? are the Pdrives of the " Source " Disk the same as the System disk ???
The errors will only be reported as soon as the "System" disk is back on line, The error reporting system/s are not available until then.
Is there any chance that you can have Drive 0 (Zero) system disk, 1 (One) source disk, 2/3 (two or 3) as the destination disk.
Good luck
Ray

 

[Biff]

Jim,
If your 3.5" Floppy is strapped for Drive Select 1 (0,1,2,3) then it should work if you pull Pin 2 of the 3.5" Floppy LOW.

Larry

I think I could use a couple of your boards Larry. 3.5" to 5.25" conversion kits used to come with nice boards like you are describing - now they are simply
stubby little things that plug into the 3.5" drive merely to convert the pin connector to edge card.

I'll go back to a pure 5.25" drive system for now - since I have multiples of those.

 

[Biff]

Pete has since told me that not only is BOOTLOAD/CMD reliant on LDOS - but that the PUT file transfer is adding garbage to the hexfile when transferring to a floppy while running NewDOS/80.
So - the odds are good, my attempt at using the 720K 3.5" drive really was working (as long as I only used it single sided) its the update utility that wasn't.

I seem to be blazing a new trail by using a MIRE with NewDos/80

Jim

 

[Tibs]

I've used MIRE with TRSDOS and NEWDOS 2.1 a bit, just none of the tools.

The only thing I would be careful with is my experience using Percom as a doubler throws strange behavior. I've stuck with Radio Shack and much better consistency.

Nothing that makes me not enjoy the device, just be aware you may need to be careful with that if you are having issues.

 

[Biff]

After a lot of back and forth between Pete and myself - the issue with his tools being not fully compatible with NewDOS/80 has been addressed. He supplied me with a new version of DSK/CMD and BOOTLOAD/CMD and I was able to successfully transfer the .hex file to my 1/2 formatted 3.5" disk and use BOOTLOAD/CMD to upgrade the PIC.

He then patiently helped me with a USB Blaster issue I ran into - and I finally was able to upgrade the FPGA also.
Of course now the MIRE is upgraded - which means the experimental DSK/CMD and BOOTLOAD/CMD are now incompatible until he creates a new release that synchronizes everything.

Pete has been great throughout this process - his support, like his hardware is top notch.

***

Now to cut and jumper pin 2 of 3.5" floppy cable to a ground and see if that allows me to use both sides.

 

[Joe Zwerko]

...

He then patiently helped me with a USB Blaster issue I ran into - and I finally was able to upgrade the FPGA also.
Of course now the MIRE is upgraded - which means the experimental DSK/CMD and BOOTLOAD/CMD are now incompatible until he creates a new release that synchronizes everything.

Pete has been great throughout this process - his support, like his hardware is top notch.

Thanks for the kind words.

As far as the MIRE is concerned, all the updates are now available:

http://bartlettlabs.com/MIRE/doc/unified.html