New C64 Ultimate Issue - Anyone else seeing this (if you got one)?

[robert_sissco]

I was wondering if anyone was having a similar issue with the C64 Ultimates that started to be delivered.

I received my Starlight edition today, and out of the box the keyboard was bowed, the middle bows up. I took it out of the case, and the plastic PCB appears to be slightly to large for the frame, so when they attached it, they had to put it up slightly in the middle to get the screw holes to line up. This is causing the keys to pop like an open jar lid, and the spacebar sits slanted in the system.

I have already contacted their support team but I am not expecting a response until next week due to the holidays, I was just wondering if anyone else was having the issue.

I *COULD* fix it with a bit of epoxy or hot glue to hold it flat, but I shouldn't have to do that for a new out of the box system.

 

[Eudimorphodon]

Here’s a review of both the beige and the starlight models where the reviewer complained that the keyboard of the starlight model flexed on the right side, but they couldn’t really figure out why:

https://www.gamesradar.com/hardware/retro/commodore-64-ultimate-review/

Looking at the pictures of the disassembled unit it’s hard to see a “design issue” with what they tried, so presumably it’s a material or quality control problem? Looking at the picture I can’t really see how it’s put together, are the keyswitches (they kind of look like cherry knockoffs in the neon gamer keyboards I’ve been buying because of the bang for buck the last few years) just attached to a plastic transparent PCB and that is screwed to a separate piece that has the L profile that has the screw holes to connect to the case? Is the bowing in between those two components, or between the keyboard as a unit and the top case?

If I were going to try to fix it myself I’d probably try loosening all the screws and confirming if it really is a hole spacing issue, and if so I’d carefully try to adjust the holes in the non-threaded part into ovals so it *can* sit flat. But if the material is actually warped then maybe, yeah, the only fix would be epoxy or whatever to try to force it flat, but then you might just transfer a torque to the case and warp the whole thing. Definitely seems like treating it as a warranty problem first is the smarter course.

 

[robert_sissco]

It is a clear plastic semi-flexable PCB mounted to a clear injection molded frame to mount it to the case. This was done to allow the LEDs to shine through. The only way I can see it is if it is slightly off. Reading the review you linked (thanks for that, it was actually the first one I noticed the same issue, except theirs seems to be on the side rather than in the middle).

I am reluctant to disassemble them further until I hear a replay from their support team since I don't want to end up voiding a warranty until they can look at it. Since it is just a variation of the Bling-Board, I would order one of those or build a Mechboard and replace it with that if it is to much (as it is I disable the LED's in the keycaps since I am not a fan of that), and as the keycaps are from CBMSTUFF.com, I know that they should fit a new board, plus I can use a heavier key switch to give it a bit more resistance when I type on it. It does work otherwise, I am just upset that I may be spending more on this to possible fix the keyboard.

But then again, to be fair, the first C64's had hardware issues that first Christmas as well, I guess Peri Fractic just wanted that authentic C64 Christmas experience. Not mad, just annoyed.

 

[Eudimorphodon]

I’m curious how that all goes together if they’re using that flexible PCB material with the keyswitches soldered to it on top of a plastic casting. Is the flexible layer glued down or…? Getting acceptable stiffness out of DIY keyboards seems to be an inexact science, I’m sure trying to make it clear makes it that much harder.

I’m sure I’m unfairly judging it because of too many bad experiences with cheap toys, but every time I see a picture of the Starlight model I can’t help but imagine the plastic as that horrible brittle stuff they make those light-up toys they sell at county fairs and whatnot out of. How is it in reality? Does it feel like it will hold up over time?

(I hate the phrase “they don’t make ‘em like they used to”, makes me feel like an old f**t (which maybe I am), but I would swear plastic was better back in the 80’s. It’s all brittle and cracking *now*, sure, but it took decades, verses being like that out of the box.)

 

[MicroCoreLabs]

Does the FPGA get hot? If the keyboard plastic is thin the FPGA heat may be deforming it, allowing it to bend/flow to relieve the screw-hole-alignment stress.

 

[robert_sissco]

The plastic of the cases is actually really well done. I think Retro Fuzion basically provided that part of it. I bought two of their cases when they kickstarted them and I have been very happy with the quality of the cases.

II am not sure who did the keyboard assembly, but that is the part that I am not happy with.

I had seen a few reviews of the Starlight edition on YouTube and none of them mentioned the bowing issue that I and the publisher of the article you posted experiences, so I think it might have some done to an issue with a batch. I also could not see any of the bowing or flexing int he videos I saw either,

It is hard to see in pic when it is assembled, but it is a plastic PCB that the key switched are soldered into and that is screwed onto the case mounting bracket. There is more to that, but that is it in a nutshell.

 

[robert_sissco]

Does the FPGA get hot? If the keyboard plastic is thin the FPGA heat may be deforming it, allowing it to bend/flow to relieve the screw-hole-alignment stress.

It came this way out of the box, I hadn't even turned it on when I noticed it. The pic I included were taken within 5 minutes of the unboxing for the case I opened with Commodore.

I was just posting here to see how possible wide spread this issue was.

 

[MicroCoreLabs]

They may put machines through a burn-in test before shipping. Maybe it was ok when they assembled it, then during burn-in it deformed.

I'm just guessing for a reason how it got through QA - assuming they perform one...

 

[Eudimorphodon]

The plastic of the cases is actually really well done. I think Retro Fuzion basically provided that part of it. I bought two of their cases when they kickstarted them and I have been very happy with the quality of the cases.

It’s good to know that they *can* make high-quality plastic, at least. Again, I was pretty sure I was unfairly judging it on appearances; when I see clear plastic and colorful LEDs my mind goes straight to all the cheap toys the kids have gotten over the years that barely survive having the battery cover unscrewed without cracking.

Sorry about the keyboard component, hopefully they’ll make good on it.

 

[robert_sissco]

They may put machines through a burn-in test before shipping. Maybe it was ok when they assembled it, then during burn-in it deformed.

I'm just guessing for a reason how it got through QA - assuming they perform one...

I played around for it for a while and I noticed to real heat coming from it, but I did not open it up to touch the chips on it to see how hot it was getting

 

[MicroCoreLabs]

I played around for it for a while and I noticed to real heat coming from it, but I did not open it up to touch the chips on it to see how hot it was getting

Just a guess on my part. Suspicious that the deformation is very close to the FPGA. They are using an Artix-7 FPGA with substantial capacity which could generate some significant heat. Maybe enough to deform soft plastic that is directly overhead...

 

[robert_sissco]

OK, so, I found out the issue, and it is a design issue. If it just a Blingboard from CBMSTUFF, it uses the same frame. The problem is that the screw posts along the top and bottom are spaced to far apart for the more flexible plastic PCB to properly support it. Their support team got back to me and their solution was to remove the PCB from the frame and remount to help flatten it out.

The issue is that even if it does flatten the PCB back out to remove the bowing, it is still to flexible that when keys closer to the middle of support posts are pressed, the PCB still bounces when you press it.

It is a design flaw.

So, overall I am happy with that I received case and system wise, but I think I might do a Mechboard build for the metal frame that connected directly to the keyboard PCB for additional strength and not just around it for additional support.

Still, when you consider the cost of an Ultimate Elite II board and a new case from Retro Fuzion, I still got a great deal over all even with needed to spend the money on a new keyboard.

 

[fachat]

I have a Starlight with similar issues if I read the description right. I fixed it myself, at least to the point as it eas designed. In my case the keyboard frame was broken .

André

 

[robert_sissco]

I have a Starlight with similar issues if I read the description right. I fixed it myself, at least to the point as it eas designed. In my case the keyboard frame was broken .

André

Mine wasn't broken, the issue I am encountering is due to a more flexible material being used for the PCB on a frame that only goes around the edge of the PCB and doesn't provide any back support with to few mounting points.

Speaking with the Commodore support team, it sounds as f they are redesigning the keyboard for at least the Starlight model (I suspect the Founders edition as well since the keyboard is also transparent) as there have been a lot of similar issues being seen.

 

[robert_sissco]

I have a Starlight with similar issues if I read the description right. I fixed it myself, at least to the point as it eas designed. In my case the keyboard frame was broken .

André

Mine wasn't broken, the issue I am encountering is due to a more flexible material being used for the PCB on a frame that only goes around the edge of the PCB and doesn't provide any back support with to few mounting points.

Speaking with the Commodore support team, it sounds as f they are redesigning the keyboard for at least the Starlight model (I suspect the Founders edition as well since the keyboard is also transparent) as there have been a lot of similar issues being seen.

 

[JoyfulTechnology]

Mine wasn't broken, the issue I am encountering is due to a more flexible material being used for the PCB on a frame that only goes around the edge of the PCB and doesn't provide any back support with to few mounting points.

Speaking with the Commodore support team, it sounds as f they are redesigning the keyboard for at least the Starlight model (I suspect the Founders edition as well since the keyboard is also transparent) as there have been a lot of similar issues being seen.

I know there are 3d printed solutions for the keyboard issues in the Starlight...unfortunately I don't have a link off the top of my head b/c I was cheap and ordered the beige. But you might want to look into what the community has been doing with 3d printing, since I think one of the things I've seen being printed is a replacement kb frame.

 

[Ruud]

I received mine yesterday and had a good look at it today. It works fine and it looks good, including the keyboard and how it fits. I'm still figuring out the manual as not everything is clear. For example, you can change the ROMs of the C64 and built in 1541. But it is not clear yet how to add your own ones and where.
Anyway, I'm going to ask the Admins if we can have a sub-thread inside this one for the Ultimates, both 64 and 1541.

 

[robert_sissco]

I know there are 3d printed solutions for the keyboard issues in the Starlight...unfortunately I don't have a link off the top of my head b/c I was cheap and ordered the beige. But you might want to look into what the community has been doing with 3d printing, since I think one of the things I've seen being printed is a replacement kb frame.

Man, life has a way of getting ahead of you. And thank you for the 3D print idea. Turns out, CBMStuff, the people who designed the keyboard in the C64 Ultimates designed a 3D print brace that does not go against any of the traces. It can be found here: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:7276792

I received mine yesterday and had a good look at it today. It works fine and it looks good, including the keyboard and how it fits. I'm still figuring out the manual as not everything is clear. For example, you can change the ROMs of the C64 and built in 1541. But it is not clear yet how to add your own ones and where.
Anyway, I'm going to ask the Admins if we can have a sub-thread inside this one for the Ultimates, both 64 and 1541.

I finally found the time a couple of weeks ago to remove and reapply the keyboard PCB to the frame, and all of the screws mounting the PCB to the frame were stripped (most likely at the factory). I opened a new support ticket and they offered to send me a replacement keyboard out at no cost. I got it the other day and this one is nice and flat as it should be. Still has the flexing issues when typing, but I am 3D printing the back brace I linked above to fix that. Now that I have a keyboard that sits flat, I am very happy with mine.

 

[fachat]

Man, life has a way of getting ahead of you. And thank you for the 3D print idea. Turns out, CBMStuff, the people who designed the keyboard in the C64 Ultimates designed a 3D print brace that does not go against any of the traces. It can be found here: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:7276792


I finally found the time a couple of weeks ago to remove and reapply the keyboard PCB to the frame, and all of the screws mounting the PCB to the frame were stripped (most likely at the factory). I opened a new support ticket and they offered to send me a replacement keyboard out at no cost. I got it the other day and this one is nice and flat as it should be. Still has the flexing issues when typing, but I am 3D printing the back brace I linked above to fix that. Now that I have a keyboard that sits flat, I am very happy with mine.

How did you get them to offer you a new keyboard...? I was supposed to send mine in for replacement ...
André

 

[robert_sissco]

How did you get them to offer you a new keyboard...? I was supposed to send mine in for replacement ...
André

I opened a new support ticket after my old one was to old to reopen and the new tech gave me the option of them shipping me a new keyboard or doing a full system swap. It might be up to the the individual tech's discretion. My first case I was supposed to do the full swap, but I declined that as there was a "fix" for it, I only reopened the ticket when I found the keyboard screws were stripped.