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How old?

I find it a bit funny that a manufacturer (here: Apple) denotes the exact date the first machine was built, but only refer to the month the last one was made. Wouldn't it be just as interesting to know?

Perhaps we should do like the wine houses, from all the vintages pick excellent and less good years (and brands). We can see it as wines. A computer from 1990 might in some people's views be vintage, but not yet a top class vintage. Let it lie in the basement another five years, rotate it slowly four times a year and then we'll see if it has become any better. :) For a few enthusiasts, anything newer will never become vintage, no matter how many times you turn it around. I guess it is how we who spend our money on vintage computers, cars, music instruments and so on differ from the original vintage wine connesiours, who will consider every season individually and appreciate it when it is old enough.
 
Kal22 said:
was wondering if anyone knew when this computer was made they are saying it is from the 90's but that does not seem right to me. Also when is a computer considered to be Vintage? :confused:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3Oe2L-KVRM
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Hi,

This topic has been discussed to death and from every conceivable angle. I have been avoiding it since, personally, as I believe this definition is highly subjective. It reminds me of the US Supreme Court decision on pornography vs art. They know it when they see it but cannot define it objectively.

The admins have allowed pretty broad latitude in discussing items which some people may view as marginally or not vintage at all. I think they are doing a good job with their approach since trying to convince everyone of a single definition may well be pointless.

If I were to add anything to help clarify the debate, I would make a FAQ or wiki and group the topics into three categories (these are notional for discussion purposes only so please do not flame me if you happen to disagree):

1. Definitively Vintage: those machines like non x86 microcomputers built prior to 1990, S-100 machines, PCs 286 or earlier, 68K Macs.
2. Marginally Vintage: x86 386 and 486 PCs, Macs NOT built in the last decade, etc.
3. Definitely Not Vintage: x86 Pentium or later, Recent PPC and Intel Macs, etc.

The wiki page or FAQ would require some sort of decision authority and way to arbitrate disagreements. Which means it will require lots of work and interaction with a diverse group of people with strongly held, often emotionally charged, opinions on what constitutes a vintage computer. As a result, I doubt anyone is going to step up and take on a "no win" and thankless task. I know certainly I am not going to volunteer for it.

IMO the best solution may be to just leave the term "vintage" undefined and allow everyone to be as subjective as they choose. Regardless of the definition, people are most likely not going to change their personal views anyway.

Why do we need a common definition of vintage computers?

Thanks!

Andrew Lynch
 
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I like my idea of slowly rotating the computer stuff in your basement. If you do, don't forget to rotate the monitors as well! Otherwise they will stay non-vintage while your computers over time become vintage. That could be rather dangerous in the long run, e.g. if you have a 486 class system that just turned vintage, and then an early 14" VGA display that is still barely obsolete. Imagine what happens when you connect those! Former best friends, now on opposite ends of the world. It is worse than if you would connect a brand new VGA display to the computer.

*tongue in cheek*

By the way: To me, all PowerPCs and Pentiums belong in the same category. Even though Power Macintoshes, RS/6000 and other systems using a PPC were much fewer in numbers than PCs, they don't become more vintage based on availability. Perhaps more valuable and collectable, but it is also questionable. However you could compare 80386's with 68030's and 486 with '040, if the latter is what you thought about with "Macs built in the last decade".
 
carlsson said:
I like my idea of slowly rotating the computer stuff in your basement. If you do, don't forget to rotate the monitors as well! Otherwise they will stay non-vintage while your computers over time become vintage. That could be rather dangerous in the long run, e.g. if you have a 486 class system that just turned vintage, and then an early 14" VGA display that is still barely obsolete. Imagine what happens when you connect those! Former best friends, now on opposite ends of the world. It is worse than if you would connect a brand new VGA display to the computer.

*tongue in cheek*

By the way: To me, all PowerPCs and Pentiums belong in the same category. Even though Power Macintoshes, RS/6000 and other systems using a PPC were much fewer in numbers than PCs, they don't become more vintage based on availability. Perhaps more valuable and collectable, but it is also questionable. However you could compare 80386's with 68030's and 486 with '040, if the latter is what you thought about with "Macs built in the last decade".
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Carlsson,
Well you have a good point and my rambling message did contain a major typo. I meant to say "Macs NOT built in the last decade" which makes more sense.

Along those lines, I would not count a 1997 Pentium II as vintage nor would I consider its equivalent Mac counterpart vintage either. However, older than 1997 or so and you are in the marginal region as to whether it is vintage or not. In general though, I would apply a more strict application of the rule to x86 based machines as they are as common as litter and about as valuable historically. I have saved perfectly good x86 computers from the side of the road, trash cans, dumpsters, etc as I am sure many others here have as well.

As with most things, it just depends on what you ask and who you ask of it.

Have a great day and thank you for your thoughts on the subject!

Andrew Lynch
 
lynchaj said:
Carlsson,
Well you have a good point and my rambling message did contain a major typo. I meant to say "Macs NOT built in the last decade" which makes more sense.

Along those lines, I would not count a 1997 Pentium II as vintage nor would I consider its equivalent Mac counterpart vintage either. However, older than 1997 or so and you are in the marginal region as to whether it is vintage or not. In general though, I would apply a more strict application of the rule to x86 based machines as they are as common as litter and about as valuable historically. I have saved perfectly good x86 computers from the side of the road, trash cans, dumpsters, etc as I am sure many others here have as well.

As with most things, it just depends on what you ask and who you ask of it.

Have a great day and thank you for your thoughts on the subject!

Andrew Lynch
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Personally, I don't think ANYTHING built in the 90's is vintage.
Obsolete, or 'old,' yes - collectible, maybe. Vintage, no.
As Carlsson mentioned, it needs to be distinguished that something may be 'rare' or 'extremely uncommon' but that does not automatically qualify it as vintage. Just because something may be worth more because there are not many survivors, or not many were made, that should not automatically qualify it as vintage.
Similar to cars, 20 years is a good judge, but that's obviously not a be-all end-all.

Some examples to chew on that I own:
Apple Mac Quadra 605: Introduced: 10/21/1993 Discontinued: 10/17/1994
Apple Mac Quadra 840AV:Introduced: 7/29/1993 Discontinued: 7/18/1994
Apple Mac Quadra 950: Introduced: 5/18/1992 Discontinued: 10/14/1995

... Just coincidence they're all Quadras

I have a 1993 flavor 840AV, and I think they were one of the absolute coolest machines ever made: 40MHz '040, DSP, decent video, but the case sucked.

Is it neat? Yeah.
Is it collectible? Maybe - I think so
Is it a classic? I think most people would call it so
Is it vintage? I don't think so - call me back in another 5-10 years.

For me, when someone mentions vintage, I think, DEC, PDP, RSX, CP/M, S-100, SS-50. I think of the Kaypros, the Osbornes, the Tandys, the Sinclairs, the Coleco Adams. I mean, when I think vintage, I think 'gotta be careful when powering it up because of the capacitors." I think, "dang - now I gotta hunt down parts".

But - that's my opinion ;)


Tony
 
What's interesting is that as PC's have evolved, and upgrades are done quicker and cheaper than years ago, people toss old PC's quicker. People saved their C64's, old Apples, old PC's for many years because they used it so long, it cost so much, etc. Nowadays few people probably think of saving their old P1, P2, etc. (hence many are at the side of the road), so while they may not be vintage, and perhaps sold in greater numbers, their wait before they make it to the landfill is much less.

So by the time they're vintage, perhaps they'll be rarer than collectors expect.

Joel
 
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