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Interesting Article

Very few subjects make me want to post a rant, but articles such as this do. I must admit shaking my head (as well getting a bit of a chuckle out of his incredibly distorted, on-the-edge-of-delusional railings) to realize there are still folks rabidly foaming at the mouth because their pet computer platform didn't make the grade 20 or 25 years ago.

He calls IBM's PC "overpriced and undepowered", but an Apple II Plus and an IBM 5150 were very closely priced when both were outfitted with 48K of RAM and a floppy drive. The IBM however, had lots of untapped potential with its open architecture and all the third party peripherals to come, along with ten times as much memory space.

Ironically in the 1980's, it was Apple (who previously had touted how open their systems were) that adopted a hostile and closed system with the Apple IIc and the Macs; while IBM broke with long standing tradition to open their architecture and give the consumer a flexibility unknown.

Apple hoped that by doing this, they would force consumers to buy only Apple accessories. (Indeed, there was a time in Apple's history when it seemed nothing from any one model Apple computer would work on any other model.) Having already lost the business world to the IBM PC and the 'killer app' Lotus 1-2-3, they became greedy and short-sighted with what they had left.

We all well know of Microsoft and its dishonest, criminal business practices. I have as strong a distaste and comtempt for them as most of us on this website. But Apple did much of what happened to them to themselves, and I don't see Steve Jobs as being a much better czar of computerdom if indeed, he had come out on top and not Gates and "Evilsoft".

What would I say to the author of the article? It's so distorted and biased that it cannot be taken with any degree of seriousness, but I would say to author Dilger: "Drink your wormwood, Daniel. Drink it down, every drop. Perhaps it will wash those sour grapes out of your throat that have been stuck there for 25 years".

How's that for a rant?
 
9.6 (for the rant) :)

I can't remember the prices, but neither machine was functional without a diskette drive. The cassette could be connected, but that's a horrible way to use a computer. Everybody waxes nostalgic about BBSes, but nobody seems to mourn the displacement of the cassette with the floppy ... So by that token, a usable IBM PC with enough memory to run DOS and a diskette drive would have been fairly pricey.

I don't think the Apple IIc was an attempt at a closed system. It was a different form factor designed to appeal more to home users and students. By the time of the IIc the architecture was quite old and it didn't have much life in it anyway.

The original Mac is a different story. I don't think that Steven Jobs was trying to prevent third party peripherals. I think he really is just that arrogant about thinking he knows what people want. Great architecture for the time, but with no expansion capability and only 128K it was a nice demonstration, not a usable system.

I remember seeing my first Mac - it was a jaw dropping experience. If you were using things like the Apple ][+ or a Timex Sinclair and you saw a Mac your jaw would drop too. It might as well have come from another planet.

Jobs is a nutball, and always has been. But without nutballs a lot of what we call progress would not exist.

Microsoft? Good business people. I don't think they started getting evil until the late 80s. How I wish I had bought stock ... ;-0
 
I don't know quite where to put Apple or Microsoft. I never used Apple computers in my "younger" days, but I lusted after them mightily, every time I'd go past the electronics shop at the Navy Exchange on NAS Oceana. Especially the IIc and Macs, when they came out. I never really gave much thought to the open-ness or not of the Apples.

As for Microsoft, I was a raving anti-Microsoftie for several years, after I started using Linux and other free operating systems. It has only been the past couple of years that I have mellowed out some on that one. I do give Bill props for being one of the shrewdest businessmen of our time, but I still don't like the business practices going on in Redmond.

Oh, and I wish I had bought stock too! :)

The rant was ok, I've seen better, but at my age, generally don't have time for them anymore, myself ;-)
 
I remember my OS/2 days. One day I looked around and ALL the software I used on OS/2 was SHAREWARE. I added it up, it was over $300 worth of shareware. And that was 1994 dollars or there abouts. I barely managed a S-100 system with ONE floppy drive in 1981. I didn't even bother looking at the Apple stuff. I couldn't even get close to what they cost then. I am not real happy with Microsoft but I am EXTREMELY UNHAPPY with IBM. I can't believe some of the stuff they have been pulling over last 5 years or so. Of course, when I look around, it's a mean world out there now. IBM isn't doing something that nobody else is doing, I just had them held to a higher standard. So much for higher standard when it comes to the buck.
 
I remember my OS/2 days. One day I looked around and ALL the software I used on OS/2 was SHAREWARE. I added it up, it was over $300 worth of shareware. And that was 1994 dollars or there abouts. I barely managed a S-100 system with ONE floppy drive in 1981. I didn't even bother looking at the Apple stuff. I couldn't even get close to what they cost then. I am not real happy with Microsoft but I am EXTREMELY UNHAPPY with IBM. I can't believe some of the stuff they have been pulling over last 5 years or so. Of course, when I look around, it's a mean world out there now. IBM isn't doing something that nobody else is doing, I just had them held to a higher standard. So much for higher standard when it comes to the buck.

Yep, when it comes right down to it, the buck rules in business. If you don't make money for the shareholders, you get ousted!

As for OS/2, I have lots of fond memories of 2.11 and 3.0 (the original Warp). I've got a "copy" of Warp 4 here, but have never been able to make it run. eComStation will be releasing version 2 of their OS/2 product. I've talked with the wife, and she will let me purchase one license (it's pretty expensive, around $259.00). This will reside on my older 1.7 GHz system, and will be used for hobby/nostalgia purposes only. :)
 
I wonder about the office suites. How often do you really share data, texts, diagrams and so on between the different programs? Sometimes I might copy-paste, but then I rely on a feature in the underlaying operating system more than the interoperability between the office applications.

I suppose it is mostly for convenience and a good price (even better if you use one of the cost-free office suites) that these software packages have outnumbered individual word processors, spreadsheets, presentation programs and so on.
 
He calls IBM's PC "overpriced and undepowered", but an Apple II Plus and an IBM 5150 were very closely priced when both were outfitted with 48K of RAM and a floppy drive.

That part is true, actually. Apple II+ with floppy was $1500 in 1981. IBM 5150 was, what, $3000? The power, however, was most definitely on IBM's side; 4.77MHz 8088 is anywhere between 2 to 8 (!!) times faster depending on what operation you are performing.

But Apple did much of what happened to them to themselves,

Yes, the article makes this point very clear. Did you read it all the way through?
 
I can't remember the prices, but neither machine was functional without a diskette drive.

If we're talking about Apples and Orang...er, I mean IBM PCs, I seem to remember Applesoft BASIC being ROM resident. Hold down the "Open Apple" key while booting? Perhaps an Apple specialist can chime in?
 
I found the paragraph below (some time ago) on a website comparing the early IBM 5150 and the Apple II+:

"When the original IBM PC was introduced in August 1981 it came equipped with a 8/16-bit Intel 8088 microprocessor operating at a clock speed of 4.77 MHz, 16K of RAM and a cassette interface and sold for $1265.00, $1565.00 with a Color/Graphics display adapter (CGA). A serious system configured to compete with an Apple II+ came with 48K RAM, one 160K floppy disk drive, PC-DOS and a CGA board. This would set you back $2630.00, slightly less than a comparable 48K Apple II+."

I also chuckled at another piece of mis-information the author of that article has stated, that Wordstar was the force that drove word processing during the 1970's. The very first version of Wordstar (1.0 for CP/M) wasn't even released released until Sept. 1978. (Granted, by 1982, Wordstar was the flagship app for word processing, but it didn't even exist for most of the 1970's).

It's always been my impression that Apple never took word processing very seriously the first 5 or 6 years of the Apple II. Somewhere, I have an article from 1982 that discusses how to run Wordstar on an Apple II+. The Apple II+ had to be modified to get the ability to generate lower case, then an 80 column video card, a Microsoft CP/M card (proced at somewhere around $800 or $900) and the Wordstar program itself (I can't remember if a sharper monitor was part of the package); all in all it ended up being a $2500 modification.
 
I don't have the time to do research right now, but those Apple numbers seem way, way off. If people had to pay $2400 for a "functional" Apple II then they wouldn't have been as successful as they were. Tandys were around at that time and they certainly weren't that expensive either.

Yes, Apple II's needed a 80-column card and some mods but no way was it an additional $2500. That's ridiculous.
 
From Mike's comment "I don't think the Apple IIc was an attempt at a closed system. It was a different form factor designed to appeal more to home users and students. By the time of the IIc the architecture was quite old and it didn't have much life in it anyway."

From what I understand it really was though. Given I'm working on peoples comments throughout the years, not my personal memories; however the Apple II/IIe was open spec and encouraged people hacking their Apple systems and making new devices, etc for their computer which I personally think was an awesome concept (I didn't appreciate the Apple until I collected a few several (well .. close to 10) years back .. although I still don't and won't appreciate Mac).

The IIc came out and now if you took it apart you voided your warranty, etc. It was now discouraged to play and hack your Apple. The IIe came out, then the IIc, the IIc died off due to lack of market/user appreciation, and the IIe outlived it by several years which is pretty funny but also a bit cool.

Again not being around (or with my age, not being coherently around) during the times I used to somewhat praise IBM as far as an innovator and inventor and for their publishing the specs to their hardware, etc however now I'm not even sure how much of that was true or voluntary. I think they did publish their specs/pins and maybe diagrams of the systems they made however with Compaq really being the ones that won the lawsuit over the BIOS I'm not sure IBM had a compatable market truly in mind.. although I still like them for no good reason.

I get a kick out of big companies that sort of poke and prod at the market. Hopefully they have good intentions, but it's fun to watch someone big oppose or atleast help out an underdog vs Microsoft or Intel.

- John
 
Ok, there you are in basic. Now, retype that 87 line basic program you were working on yesterday.

Actually, I used it as a geeky calculator for math and science homework...BASIC was very simple to use back then, nothing like today's VB or even the Basis BASIC interpreter. No longer is BASIC a Beginners language, they should call it Visual Asic.
 
Actually, I used it as a geeky calculator for math and science homework...BASIC was very simple to use back then, nothing like today's VB or even the Basis BASIC interpreter. No longer is BASIC a Beginners language, they should call it Visual Asic.

I hacked out a quick & dirty loan amortization program in TRS-80 Model 100 BASIC one Saturday (many years ago), and the first wife and I took it to the dealership to use to figure out car payments based on sticker price and possible interest rates. Worked pretty darned good too! :)
 
The IIc came out and now if you took it apart you voided your warranty, etc. It was now discouraged to play and hack your Apple. The IIe came out, then the IIc, the IIc died off due to lack of market/user appreciation, and the IIe outlived it by several years which is pretty funny but also a bit cool.

Ack, that's not right at all. The IIc was marketed as a *portable* apple IIe. It has a carrying handle on the back of it, for goodness sakes :) It was not "the direction the company wanted to go" -- rather, it was created for business users who could take their apple iic to the office, do visicalc spreadsheets, then take it home and keep working, etc. The IIe was still sold and marketed as the expandable system you kept at home.

A IIc is really nice -- great keyboard, every add-on port you need is already built into the system including the floppy drive. They're not easy to find, and I wish I had one.
 
A IIc is really nice -- great keyboard, every add-on port you need is already built into the system including the floppy drive. They're not easy to find, and I wish I had one.

What? you DON'T own one yet? During Christmas (whether you celebrate it or not) go on eBay and buy one. Christmas season is slow of the eBay market, as everyone is rushing to buy NEW stuff. During Christmas I bought my IIc in original box, with original disks, and manuals for $6 and no one bid against me. At the same time, I got a nice rotary "box phone" from Deco-Tel for $9.
The IIc is a fun system to play around with, and if you, like me, get one in new condition, they look nice too. Some of the IICs on eBay are yellow, and there is one work to describe them: "ick." They are easy to program on as well, but man, when that internal drive finds track zero, the thing is NOISY! When the IIc came out, reportedly new computer owners thought they're IIc was broke, 'cause it was so noisy. To be honest, I wasn't so sure about mine untill I did some reading:p!

--Ryan
 
A IIc is really nice -- great keyboard, every add-on port you need is already built into the system including the floppy drive. They're not easy to find, and I wish I had one.

I had one. Given to me by a friend a couple of years ago, along with a IIe and two Amigas. I didn't have the time to learn/play with them, so I ended up giving all four of them (including monitors and software) to another friend in my area that was rather fond of Apples and Amigas.
 
As far as cassette interfaces go I think what it comes down to is how much effort went into them that makes the difference.

With the cost and availability of floppy drives in the 80s I think they knew most people wouldn't rely on them???

The Altair cassette interfaces are much better than what Apple had to offer. Very robust and reliable. Sure, 11 minutes to load 8k...
 
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