IBM 5150 Hard disk error 1701

fatwizard said:

Some possibilities come to mind about the Seagate. Where is the terminator? Could it be on the disconnected tape drive? Is the ST-419 sitting at track zero? If it is made like the ST-412 I have, then it has an external stepper for the heads that has an arm mounted on the shaft that would turn with the stepper. If it is rotated so that the tip of that arm is blocking the sensor, then it it at track zero. Has this stepper ever rotated or even wiggled? (sorry if you already mentioned it, long thread)

I have a collection of old Seagate docs that seem to confirm the ST-419 having 32 sectors per track. I was under the impression that sectors per track numbers higher than 17 were RLL. I don't think that either of the controllers you have will do anything more than 17. The ST-419 has 2 more heads, thereby 1 more disk than the ST-412. The 412 was 10MB with 2 disks, so it follows the 419 would have 15MB with 3 disks. All at 17 sectors per track.

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I am going to sound dumb (again) in 3..2...1... The terminating resistor is the blue 16 pin chip? If so, it has been on the ST-419 throughout the testing.
The stepper has not budged ever. It is not sitting at zero, but is about 180 degrees from 0. I know that you are not supposed to move the stepper, but I did budge it a little with no power and it moves moderately freely (barely moved it a couple of millimeters). when under power, it has a resistance to moving.

As stated earlier, the ST-419 appears to be original to the Franklin external HDD, and the Adaptec has Franklin chips in it (admittedly the chips have Franklin copyright info on a piece of paper taped to the chip). The guy I bought it off of said it was working when it was mothballed and the Franklin HDD was all still connected with long ribbon cables to the Adaptec card which was still in the machine when I bought it. all the grounds were attached and everything. I am convinced that this set did work together at some point.

fatwizard - MFM and RLL are different encoding methods, not actually a sectors per track definition. But a controller would need to be specially configured to handle 32 sectors per track and to maintain the same data rate the drive would have to spin at around half the speed. Feels all very non-standard and messy.

I would guess, keyword guess, that Franklin ROM is set to 32spt (or similar) when using the external connector. All guesswork though without reading the ROM.

What jumpers/switches are set on the ST419?

Edit: above is wrong, because I realize now that there is no external connector. Do you remember which jumpers were set before removing them? If so, put them back, and try the LLF routine again. Also be sure you get the correct 20 pin cable on the correct plug - if they're around the wrong way it wont be able to read/write to the drive.

Edit 2: I'm assuming you're doing this just out of curiousity to see what you can achieve, for quick results I'd keep the Miniscribe installed and try using AnyDrive or ordering via ebay a more generic controller to use with it.

SpidersWeb said:

Do you remember which jumpers were set before removing them? If so, put them back, and try the LLF routine again. Also be sure you get the correct 20 pin cable on the correct plug - if they're around the wrong way it wont be able to read/write to the drive.

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As stated on page 4 of this thread (sorry its getting long), I had taken a photo a few weeks ago before I ever touched the jumpers and can see that the original jumpers were on OP, QR, and EF. LLF failed with this jumper combo. But the Syquest is no longer installed as I have only one set of working cables which I assume could affect the jumper settings (even though this does not sound likely).

UPDATE: I only have one 20 pin cable and it works for my other 2 drives when attached to J0 on the Adaptec. Pin 1 is on the bottom when the card is in the machine and the cable is installed Pin 1 down. As you know, it is not possible to reverse the edge connector so I do not think it is the cable.

My main reason for getting it going is that I believe it holds a lot of software. If I cannot save the software on it, I still would like to get it going to restore its functionality. Some people do puzzles or read books, apparently I now pull my hair out over vintage computers for fun.

SpidersWeb - I was under the impression that to get 32 SPT you would need RLL encoding. I have never seen an MFM encoded drive have more than 17 SPT (doesn't mean they didn't exist). I don't think it really matters in this case, but I would love to know for sure.

I think the bottom line on the old Seagate is that if the stepper isn't returning to track zero on power up, then the drive isn't coming ready. Error 1701 is listed as "drive not ready", though other things besides drive problems could cause that (cables or drive select jumpers setup incorrectly). I don't think there is any jumper on the drive that would prevent it seeking track zero on startup.

If the old Seagate were on my workbench, after I had done the usual resuscitation tricks first (remove the circuit board and inspect it for cracks and bulging capacitors and the like, exercise every connector and jumper and rock the socketed chips in there sockets). Then if it still didn't respond, I would disconnect the controller cables, power it up, and move the stepper by hand until it reached the park position ( as far from the sensor as it will go). It will turn harder under power, and it could come to life suddenly in your fingers. Once it is all the way, cycle power on the drive and see if it brings the stepper around to track zero.

I know this isn't ideal, but ideal passed 30 years ago, and I have had this work on several old MFM drives. I only move the stepper when the drive is spinning as the heads should be flying over the disks. Moving the stepper or the spindle when the drive is off and the heads are sitting on track zero is the scenario to be avoided. If track zero becomes damaged, the drive is likely done for. It must seek track zero on powerup or it just isn't going to function.

BTW Never fear sounding stupid. You may have noticed that I don't. This is how I learned everything I know. When I have a boffin say to me, "you didn't know that?", I reply "now I do!"

fatwizard said:

If the old Seagate were on my workbench, after I had done the usual resuscitation tricks first (remove the circuit board and inspect it for cracks and bulging capacitors and the like, exercise every connector and jumper and rock the socketed chips in there sockets). Then if it still didn't respond, I would disconnect the controller cables, power it up, and move the stepper by hand until it reached the park position ( as far from the sensor as it will go). It will turn harder under power, and it could come to life suddenly in your fingers. Once it is all the way, cycle power on the drive and see if it brings the stepper around to track zero.

BTW Never fear sounding stupid. You may have noticed that I don't. This is how I learned everything I know. When I have a boffin say to me, "you didn't know that?", I reply "now I do!"

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It has only one socketed chip besides the T resistor... reseated them both and exercised all other connections. Inspected the remainder of the board and it looks good. I moved the stepper as advised. Still no activity from the stepper during any power up.

While I do fear sounding stupid, everyone on this site has been nothing but respectful and helpful. We are collectively working toward a goal and others may be able to benefit from some of the solutions that we find. I am very happy to be a part of this group.

I'm sorry about the old Seagate. I had really hoped it would take off. I dug out my Miniscribe 8425 and used the Adaptec 2010a to set it up. The drive has some issues with spinning up after it has sat a while. once it's going however, it works well. It setup just dandy with all the right parameters. I strongly suspect that your 2002a has been restricted by Franklin so it wouldn't work with any other drive type.

I haven't been on this forum very long, and it is the very first forum I have ever participated in. I was not sure of the reception I would get. I too have found everyone most helpful and respectful. Old computers are special cases when it comes to repair and maintenance. Because of the age of the equipment and the circumstances of long (years) of their storage, repairs sometimes require extraordinary measures that are not in any service manual. This knowledge comes only from experience. The boffins I referred to previously were not encountered here. This forum has a great depth of that experience, and wonderful people who have been willing to share it. I am very grateful to be a part of it.

Do the ST412/419 drives auto-return to track 0? I know my ST412's don't seem to do any self-test at all, but I can't remember if they automatically go to track 0 or not without being told to. If they definately auto-return, then damn, but if we are not sure then two questions -

Just two basic questions:
- the 34 pin control cable - straight through or got twisty in it?
- on the ST419 (might be at the front of the drive) which jumpers are fitted?

(the theory I was pondering as an option, was that it was set to "Drive 1" for control but the data cable was connected for "Drive 0" )

SpidersWeb said:

Just two basic questions:
- the 34 pin control cable - straight through or got twisty in it?
- on the ST419 (might be at the front of the drive) which jumpers are fitted?

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#1 Straight cable, no twist.
#2 I do not see jumpers at the front of the drive or anywhere for that matter, but I do see a 14 pin jumper like part fitted into a 16 pin chip socket next to the T resistor. imagine a 14 pin chip with metal bars going straight across... pin 1 is connected to pin 14, pin 2 is connected to pin 13, pin 3 is connected to pin 12, etc... Of the jumpers that go across, 3 have been broken so that 2/13, 3/12, and 4/11 are no longer making contact.

Ahhh. I forgot about those stupid things.
Yes the metal bars are the drive select. It sounds like it is configured as DS0 which is correct for a straight cable.

Your descriptions (and other documentation) lead me to believe that your 419 is nearly identical to the 412. My 412 has the same arrangement with the knockouts in a chip socket next to the terminator. Sounds like it's addressed as the first drive. The 412 I have here is the only one I have ever seen, but I popped it on the bench last night to make sure, and it whirls the stepper around to zero as soon as the spindle comes up to speed.

I want to be wrong about this. It would be so cool if it were working.

fatwizard said:

Your descriptions (and other documentation) lead me to believe that your 419 is nearly identical to the 412. My 412 has the same arrangement with the knockouts in a chip socket next to the terminator. Sounds like it's addressed as the first drive. The 412 I have here is the only one I have ever seen, but I popped it on the bench last night to make sure, and it whirls the stepper around to zero as soon as the spindle comes up to speed.

I want to be wrong about this. It would be so cool if it were working.

Click to expand...

There is a youtube video of an ST419 being powered up. It is not very clear, but it appears that the stepper was at track zero prior to power up. He allows it to run for quite a while and it never appears to move until he begins the LLF using SeaGate Format v4.0. Once the format program initializes, the stepper then moves as far from track 0 as it can before returning to track 0 and beginning the format. In the video, the guy remarks that the 419 is like a 412 with 3 platters/15MB: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiNPHsGLhTI

After watching the video, I wonder if I should manually move the stepper to track 0 and try to perform an LLF again.

Sounds like it must be doing translation (305 6 17 => 305 4 32)? I'd recommend trying the Seagate formatter instead of the one on the controller. Making sure the jumpers are set as original.

http://ftp.wcss.pl/pub/stuba/utildisk/sgatfmt4.zip

And see what happens. Because of what fatwizard has said about the arm moving, I'm worried it still wont work, but it can't hurt.

SpidersWeb said:

Sounds like it must be doing translation (305 6 17 => 305 4 32)? I'd recommend trying the Seagate formatter instead of the one on the controller. Making sure the jumpers are set as original.

http://ftp.wcss.pl/pub/stuba/utildisk/sgatfmt4.zip

And see what happens. Because of what fatwizard has said about the arm moving, I'm worried it still wont work, but it can't hurt.

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I do not have a way of using this format utility as it will not run on my PC and I cannot hook the hard drive to my core i7 computer... I tried moving the stepper to 0 (tip of arm between the sensors) and repeated all of the previous testing to no avail. Will this unit function upside down? I would like to probe the IC's and see if I can find a failure. At least I know that my controller card is working.

Are you looking for more parts or systems?
I have a hd and a floppy drive ans well a few systems
I also have the laptop IBM made around that time it only has 2 floppy drives and a lcd screen

PCFreek said:

I do not have a way of using this format utility as it will not run on my PC and I cannot hook the hard drive to my core i7 computer... I tried moving the stepper to 0 (tip of arm between the sensors) and repeated all of the previous testing to no avail. Will this unit function upside down? I would like to probe the IC's and see if I can find a failure. At least I know that my controller card is working.

Click to expand...

I could never get the Seagate format utility to run on an 8bit PC. I think it is intended for AT class computers. The spec sheet on the 419 doesn't mention being able to operate it in any orientations other than right side up. I think I might try it on it's side since many of the really old ones prohibit operating them upside down (they are talking about mounting the drive that way, not just testing), but still, too be safe.

Good luck, good luck, good luck.

I've been able to use SpeedStor on every MFM or RLL drive I have tried it on and in any computer. It's worth a try. It also performs some controller and drive diagnostics.