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Model II Keyboard Differences - Further Analysis

pski

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Given the recent discussions on Model II keyboards, I have done a little more research on the keyboard differences between the TRS-80 Model II/16 (which we will call the “A” design) and the Model 12/16B/6000 (which we will call the “B” design). The A design was first released in 1978 with the Model II. The B design appeared in 1982 with the Model 12.

Model II Keyboard and Model 6000 Keyboard Comparison
IMG_0756.jpg

Picture of Model II keyboard on top and Model 12 keyboard on bottom
IMG_0751.jpg

The A design keyboards use the 8021 controller which offers a subset of the 8048 controller features found in the B design keyboards. I don't know yet why Tandy moved to the 8048 for the B keyboards but it may have to do with the need for additional ports for the additional function keys. However, the schematics do not show this. (Note: I am not an electrical engineer...I only play one on VCF :) ) It may also be that at the time of the redesign, for some reason, the 8048 was cheaper or more available than the 8021. This warrants further investigation. If you know, please educate me.

Both A and B design keyboards J1 connector and all of the iterations of the Model II video/keyboard boards J2 connector have a 6 pin interface as follows:

1 - Data (from keyboard)
2 - Not Used
3 - Clock (from keyboard)
4 - Busy (from computer)
5 - +5 VDC
6 - Ground

Video/Keyboard interface connector
IMG_0757.jpg

“A” design keyboards have a 5 pin female connector with the following pin assignments:

1 - Data
2 - Busy
3 - Ground
4 - Clock
5 - +5 VDC

Model II Keyboard Connector
Screen Shot 2015-06-27 at 5.25.04 PM.jpg

“B” design keyboards have a 5 pin male connector with the following pin assignments:

1 - Data
2 - Clock
3 - Busy
4 - +5 VDC
5 - Ground

Model 12 Keyboard Connector
Screen Shot 2015-06-27 at 5.27.03 PM.jpg

As shown in the technical manuals, these pin specs are using the standard DIN pin numbering scheme where the pins numbers are NOT ordered physically. They are physically arranged 1-4-2-5-3. This was implemented by the DIN spec so that the pin numbers would not change with a different number of pins in the DIN connector.

Notice that the “B” design keyboard matches the video/keyboard board pins almost exactly using standard DIN pin numbering (with an offset due to the cut pin 2). But, the A keyboards match the pins on a physical numbering basis (1-2-3-4-5). I suspect that the original Model II engineers used a physical pin numbering approach on the keyboard connector but then this was corrected to be DIN standardized when they created the B design.

Now, since the video/keyboard board interface and the keyboard interfaces have not changed between A and B designs, I theorize that an A design keyboard will work on a B design computer with the appropriate rearranging of the keyboard connector. This is an important question to answer since there appear to be many fewer B design keyboards available in the market.

The only way to know for sure is to actually test it with the actual hardware. That will be the subject of my next post.
 
IMO I think it can be done by rearranging the pins from an A keyboard to work with a B computer. Hopefully I mean it looks simple enough
 
You'll still end up making an adapter cable, since the two keyboards disagree about which end of the cable has a DIN connector vs. being semipermanently attached. But yes, we suspect that simply scrambling the signals into the right order will work electrically.
 
That's what I am hoping. Or pete could be nice and send me his 6000 keyboard! I'll pay for it! Than he can build an adapter cable and use it on the Model 12 and use the cable coming from a model II and connect it. Pete do you have a model II? or just a 12. Or send me your model II KBD !!! ;)
 
That's what I am hoping. Or pete could be nice and send me his 6000 keyboard! I'll pay for it! Than he can build an adapter cable and use it on the Model 12 and use the cable coming from a model II and connect it. Pete do you have a model II? or just a 12. Or send me your model II KBD !!! ;)

You will never get that 6000 keyboard from me. Did you see the picture? It is practically unused. It came in the original box and plastic. I have a few of the big TRS-80s, but each has its issues.

Edit: this was posted completely in fun
 
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Crossover cable made by splicing 2 sides of male to male DIN cable using the above diagrams. Hopefully will work with no smoke etc. Should have model 16 keyboard by Thursday or Monday. Was not able to obtain a 16b keyboard.
 

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Looks good. Good luck if you get to try it first. You will be a pioneer. The Neil Armstrong of Model II keyboards.

My parts are coming UPS ground. :( I will happily be Buzz Aldrin.
 
Be careful.

If you got a cable with 4 wires and a shield, you probably comes in trouble
with pin 2.
This pin is mostly connected to the shield, so you cannot change his function.
 
FYI to those who wish to cut a cable and re-route wires as I did. DO NOT get your pin outs confused. The 5 pin DIN plug can be confusing depending on how you look at it. if you look on the web for 5 pin din pinouts some are misleading.

So the proper pinouts while looking into the front of the cable with the pins pointing at you and with the notch up and the pins almost forming a "U" shape along the bottom are: Pins 1,4,2,5,3.

So if you do google "5 pin din pinouts" look at the images. On the 2nd row of images at the first position is one that is yellow in color. Use the leftmost or "Male" side it is correct. I hope this helps you all out.
 
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Crossover cable works fine! However the space bar on my 16 keyboard does not work and yes replacement foam mechanisms replaced. Have no idea why spacebar is not working. Tried 5 diff pieces of foam pads. Sorry might be a double post about space bar.
 
Crossover cable works fine! However the space bar on my 16 keyboard does not work and yes replacement foam mechanisms replaced. Have no idea why spacebar is not working. Tried 5 diff pieces of foam pads. Sorry might be a double post about space bar.

Did you replace the mylar on the space bar key? When I rebuilt a MII keyboard with new foam pads a few pieces of the mylar no longer formed the proper capacitance. I replaced them with new mylar discs and then they worked fine. I have no idea why.

btw, I'm glad you got it working. I've been trying to build a cable tonight but soldering DIN plugs is major PITA!
 
These were pads removed from a donor keyboard. The looked almost brand new. All other keys work. I suspect the Xenix install is corrupt no commands work.
 
These were pads removed from a donor keyboard. The looked almost brand new. All other keys work. I suspect the Xenix install is corrupt no commands work.

In my MII rebuild it drove me nuts. The bad mylar discs looked fine and looked just like the others except for some reason it would not cause the key press to register. It's easy to test with the keyboard apart. Try tapping different mylar discs against the keyboard PCB and see what happens.

re Xenix, what does the screen show and happens? Do you get to a "login:" prompt? Maybe send a screen shot or 2.
 
Hi Pete,

The problem with your keyboard can be caused by the other mylar discs.
The key is placed in a matrix and when you press a key the capacitance in one row and one column will change.
But if one of the keys in a row or column is to close to the bottom of the key the total capacitance will not change enough to
be detected.
You can see the matrix in your technical manual, check all the keys in the column and row of the spacebar.
If there is a keypad that differs from the other keys replace the disc and the foam.

There can also be a problem with one of the drivers or receivers. I was Lucky to find these XR components on ebay.
Watch out with desoldering as the pcb is of an awfull quality. First cut all the legs of the chip(s), than apply heat on
the backside and pull each leg from the frontside, and open the stil hot hole with a needle.
Do this only if you cannot find any other solution fot the problem, as you can damage it forever.
If you insert ic sockets you have probably have to modify of the cover as there is is very little room between
the pcb and the cover.
 
I get no login prompt on Xenix at all. And I did try just touching a myler disk to the space bar pad and nothing happened! So not sure but I know xenix is not working correctly.
 
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