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Question about the Commodore 16

alank2

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I like the name because I just think 16 sounds cool, and while I started with a VIC-20, I would have loved the 40x25 that it offered along with that 16K.

Here is my real question though - WHY introduce the Commodore 16 AFTER the Commodore 64? Why not just keep selling the C64 and build new systems that had more capability than it?
 
The answer to the second question is easy. They did. The C64 continued in sales throughout the early 90s. The C128 was released a year after the TED line in 1985.

As for the first, near as I can tell, the TED machines were supposed to be a line of business computers with the 116 (sold in Europe only) being the low-end and the Plus 4 being the high-end. There was supposed to be another high-end that didn't include the additional software of the Plus for, but it didn't go into production. The C16 was a cost saving low-end that ultimately under-cut software development for the higher end machines. But the machines were intended for different markets, but customer confusion saw them cross-cutting on each other's turf.
 
.....because Jack saw the writing on the wall and left and all the good decisions were bases on Jacks' direction. Without him they didnt know what to do with the projects he had in r&D and jsut botched it.. So ya know.. Corporate greed destroyed commodores business success.
 
But a little birdie told me it was all deliberate espionage conspired by Steve Jobs to bring down his competitors.
 
The TED machines started as competition for the Timex/Sinclair machines and the expected flood of similarly low priced machines from Japan. After Timex/Sinclair failed, the TED machines moved up market with the addition of better materials and some business software. The end result was very bad. The Plus/4 was interesting since the ROM based software was taken from a relatively good integrated package but cut down. Just to prove no one at Commodore was paying attention, the Plus/4 ROM could not save to cassette.

Commodore had a corporate structure where the CEO made most of the decisions but was much too big for that bottle neck to last. Without Tramiel, projects just kept going without being turned into anything that could be successful.
 
The TED machines started as competition for the Timex/Sinclair machines and the expected flood of similarly low priced machines from Japan. After Timex/Sinclair failed…
When people describe the TED machines as a response to the Sinclair machines they often mention the ZX-81/Timex Sinclair 1000, but I think that’s mostly the result of Americans not knowing anything about the ZX Spectrum; that’s the machine that really makes sense as the target. (Although it also seems true that another of Tramiel’s goals was to make the TED machines cheap enough to produce that they’d obliterate the ZX-81 niche entirely.)

As for the first, near as I can tell, the TED machines were supposed to be a line of business computers…

This was *not* Tramiel’s intention, actually. The TED line was premised on the idea that there was still a legit market slot for introductory 16K-memory-class computers cheaper than the Commodore 64, which may have actually been true when he came up with it. The VIC-20 was becoming technically obsolete, being both saddled with that awkward video resolution and not being that much cheaper to build than the C64 due to its use of SRAM, and it also had the full size case and keyboard at a time when introductory machines were getting away with cheaper chicklet (or membrane) keyboards. The vision Tramiel had was for a new machine with a more capable video chip than the VIC-20‘s (but simpler/cheaper than the C64’s, with sound integrated into the same chip instead of separate) that could be slapped into machines as cheap or cheaper to build than things like the Sinclair models. Up to this point Commodore had never worried much about machine language program compatibility between their different lines, and they didn’t here either, so… they got to work on it.

The thing that happened, of course, is the niche for 16K machines was almost dead before the chip was ready, Tramiel left, and Commodore was stuck with this thing that they didn’t know what to do with. The Commodore 116, which was only released in very small numbers:


Is the machine Tramiel had wanted, but nobody really wanted it when it was ready, so… Commodore made goofy decisions like trying to repurpose the tech into a business computer with the Plus/4, stuffing it into black VIC-20 cases as the C16… and, yeah, by this point it was all pointless because they’d expanded C64 production to the point that the 64 was cheaper. Total boondoggle.
 
Michael Tomcyzk had pushed the idea of placing a suite of applications in ROM for several planned computers. There were proposed portable TED machines and a hypothetical Plus/4 portable could have been a credible challenger to the Tandy Model 100.
 
One of the things I find interesting about that 8-bit Guy video is Bil Herd mostly emphasizes Jack Tramiel's "$50 Spectrum Killer" ambitions for the PET, but also says Jack was onboard with the "Business Computer" slant. (And there's that picture of Jack at CES *right before he quit* holding prototypes of the higher-end models.) The sources really seem muddled about the intentions for the line; this source, for instance, emphasizes that it was only the 116 that Jack wanted, but also talks about this idea that it could be used in higher end machines spawning at some point during the hardware development process. Honestly I'm inclined to think that Tramiel might have just gone along with the upgrade idea because, well, he had bigger things to fight about; this article kind of reinforces that take on it.

In retrospect the whole idea of the TED as "business machine" looks laughable. Commodore liked to crow about the C64 being an "Apple killer", and, sure, the Apple II was still at least kind of perceived as a "business machine" at the time, but the thing the Apple II had that TED definitely doesn't is 80 column video, either in the form of a widely-supported add-on card in the II+ or (usually) standard equipment in the IIe. I mean, sure, having "any" computer is probably better than nothing and plenty of small businesses got started doing basic accounting and word processing on "whatever" 40 column home computer they might have had lying around, but it really stretches credibility to think that anyone would go out of their way to choose such a limited system on purpose unless they genuinely couldn't do better.
Michael Tomcyzk had pushed the idea of placing a suite of applications in ROM for several planned computers. There were proposed portable TED machines and a hypothetical Plus/4 portable could have been a credible challenger to the Tandy Model 100.

... That's actually the content of my second link above; it's very confusing because it's not clear if he was actually pushing this concept under the name "MAX machine" going all the way back to the "MAX" that actually shipped, IE, the weird brain-damaged game-console thing related to the C64 that only briefly sold in Japan, or if he reused the name for this concept, or what.

The thing about Commodore at this point is they'd actually been thrashing semi-aimlessly since at least 1982; it's very easy to make the case that the Commodore 64 was an accidental success that just randomly emerged out of all the random spaghetti the company was frantically throwing at the wall. The TED machines are a late symptom of this dysfunction (as was the Commodore LCD), but the real poster children for the dysfunction are the CBM-II line Commodore's *basic* idea seemed to be to build a line of "business" machines that kind of had a similar relationship to the previous PET line as the Apple III had with the Apple II, IE, a *kind of* upwardly compatible but much more capable upgrade, but the thing spiraled into this completely schizophrenic mix of different models, including the "P-series" which were positioned as "Professional" computers (IE, not "Business" computers) that were fitted with the same VIC-II 40 column color video chip (and SID sound!) as the C64... and technically were being shown off before the C64 actually shipped. Those P-series machines were basically a powerful as the later C-128, but weren't compatible with the C64, nor were they really compatible with the "B-series" machines, which themselves weren't really PET compatible... whole thing was a huge mess. If the C64 hadn't miraculously leaked out the door in working order and taken off like a rocket Commodore probably would have been going out of business by 1984.
 
"Couldn't do better" is a huge window though.

Pretty much any 80-column machine (Apple II or an IBM compatible) in the early 1980s is going to cost you over $1000, and add a couple hundred for the monitor. Being able to say "you can bring this thing home for $200 and hook it to your TV" is a compelling case, even if the customer comes back to buy a $300 disc or $75 tape drive next week.

They were putting out a huge range of feelers with stuff like CBM-II and TED machines, but I wonder if that was a product of the time. I'm not sure there was a sensible play for a "long-term" home computing platform in 1982 or 1983. If you built an 8-bit machine, it has a bumpy upgrade path (see: C128 or even the Apple IIgs), and a 16-bit machine was too expensive to get into the home mass market, especially when the big takeaway from the success of the VIC 20 was "if you make a cheap machine that's marginally more competent than Sinclair, you'll sell a bazillion of them."
 
Just a few excerpts from Bagnall:

Not going to type the direct quote here, but on P305 Bob Russell talk about how Commodore almost purchased ZiLOG straight up, because they needed a 16 bit processor for a high-end business computer, wanted vertical integration of production, and MOS had not developed a 16 bit processor yet.

The a comment from Al Charpentier and one from Bob Russell about why a low cost system was attractive to Jack, when you consider the 70s pocket calculator disaster for Jack:
His philosophy was simple: low prices sell more merchandise. Nevertheless, Jack still thought of computers as calculators. "He felt that the marketplace would go for lower cost, mixed function computers," says Al Charpentier. "Jack 'grew up' in the calculator market and he looked at the computer as just another big calculator. That's why the follow-on versions were somewhat crippled." (P306)
The mere fact that a cheaper computer existed worried him. "I was involved with that project real early on because I helped specify it," recalls [Robert] Russell. "We were supposedly doing an anti-Sinclair device, trying to beat out the color Sinclair. It wasn't to be compatible or the next generation of C64. It was supposed to be a less than $100 computer to compete against the Sinclair. It had to be made for $50." (P307)

And another point about minimizing the cost.
"The TED had one stipulation; they said you needed to do it in nine chips," recalls Herd. "Nobody wanted to go tell Jack that they needed to add a chip. Well, I didn't care. I said, 'You almost did it in nine, we need ten." (P313)
DiOrio's goal was to reduce the number of chips inside the TED. He set out to design the TED chip as a low-cost graphics and sound chip similar to the original VIC-I chip, but with higher resolutions and more colors. (P316)

And what actually got released:
"The 116 was the original design meant to compete with the Sinclair," says Herd. (P323)

Very soon after Jack left Commodore (all quotes from P341:
Commodore's marketing arm convinced [Marshall] Smith to release only two 264 computers: one with 64 kilobytes of memory and one with only 16 kilobytes.
The 16-kilobyte version of the 264, now called the C116, represented Herd's original goal.
"The C116 became a C16 abomination. They stuck it in a C64 case." -Bil Herd
...the talking 364, did not make it very far after CES. "I was in charge of that for about two weeks between the time it was handed to me and the time it was cancelled," says Haynie.
 
In my mind, the #1 problem of a business direction was the 80 column display. Didn't the early PET's or other Commodore machines for business have 80 column? Why would they design a TED chip that couldn't do 80 column if their intention was a business direction? While they were dropping sprites and other things, it would seem that that would be the thing to add.
 
In my mind, the #1 problem of a business direction was the 80 column display. Didn't the early PET's or other Commodore machines for business have 80 column? Why would they design a TED chip that couldn't do 80 column if their intention was a business direction? While they were dropping sprites and other things, it would seem that that would be the thing to add.
Not going to have an 80 column display on a TV. The TED chip was perfect for Videotex which had been one of the planned uses for a number of the low priced computers.

Don't forget, the Osbourne 1 sold many units with a display that only showed 40 columns. The portable office machines all had small screens. Model 100 was 40x8; Epson HX-20 was 20x4. There were potential markets for what Commodore was developing but that was not what the final systems hit.
 
Did they pay the price for remaining being tied to the TV when the world moved past that? They were good at add on peripherals, perhaps make a no frills 80 column monitor that could be purchased with a computer still much cheaper than the competition. They were all about the color and perhaps low cost 80 column and color monitor didn't go together then.

I think the Osborne was 52 columns, which they remedied with their next model with the larger CRT which had 80.
 
They did pay a price for it. Successful computers were not remaindered in Hungary.

There were computers that resembled what Commodore turned the TED machines into. The C16 matches the CoCo 1 while the Plus/4 joined the Coleco Adam as desktops with applications in ROM. Marketing forecasts from 1982 indicated that Commodore was designing the correct products; the limited sales in the US of the machines Commodore planned to compete against should have served as a warning. The Sinclair QL was another machine with a great plan in 1982 that was completely wrong for 1984.
 
Don't forget, the Osbourne 1 sold many units with a display that only showed 40 columns.

The Osborne showed 52 columns (without the 80 column card), but it was a moving window on a hardware virtual 128x32 screen, so 80 column software didn't require any hacking to work with it. The Osborne also had a large library of well known business software that ran on it. Commodore might have had reasonably good intentions in trying to provide a functional suite of "business" software in ROM, but realistically you're just not going to be able to stuff something as functional as Wordstar, Supercalc, and dBase II into a reasonable amount of ROM memory.

(And let's be clear here, the software built into the Plus/4 was not even *remotely* like Wordstar; the word processor could handle single-spaced documents about a page and a half long...)

The portable office machines all had small screens. Model 100 was 40x8; Epson HX-20 was 20x4. There were potential markets for what Commodore was developing but that was not what the final systems hit.

Any TED portable would have to be a "sewing machine" like the SX-64. (Or be seriously compromised by using one of those tiny "folded" monochrome CRTs... or need an LCD capable of TV resolutions and refresh, which opens up a whole can of worms.) It's not realistic to think of TED *ever* being incorporated into something like a Model 100.

The LCD is a different kettle of fish here; Commodore had apparently invested a fair amount of money in getting a good quality 80x16 LCD working, and if Commodore had managed to get it out the door by early 1985 with a price tag competitive with machines like the Model 100 there may have been a window of possible success, but realistically I think history argues against it. There were a whole grab-bag of similar 80 column portables, like the Epson PX-8 and NEC PC-8401/Starlet, that never sold in anything like the numbers the Model 100 did. In part it was price (these machines were a few hundred bucks more than the Model 100, for roughly similar capability other than the screen size), and in part because with the tech of the time 80 column LCDs were a *lot* harder to read, even if they were "good quality" for the time. And of course the other factor was it was obvious that PC compatible notebooks that weren't going to cost *that* much more were right around the corner. (The NEC Starlet premered in early 1985 for $999; later that year the Toshiba T1100 was out for $1900. Yes, that's almost twice as much, but it had a full desktop-size screen, a floppy drive, and PC compatibility. It weighed twice as much, but if you were carting along a separate storage device for the Starlet instead of relying on its RAMdrive it was about a break-even.)

In short, with the LCD Commodore made the rare wise decision of realizing they'd completely missed their shot and backed out before turning out enough units to dump in Hungary or whatever. TED really should have stopped with the 116; if they really wanted to commit to trying to dent Sinclair maybe they could have chucked out a 64K version of it to compete with the 48K Spectrum, but only if such a machine was in fact materially cheaper to build than the C64. (It was never clear that the Plus/4 was, despite its marginally lower chip count. And it is marginal, because adding the ACIA back in to have a user port pretty much narrows the difference down to the SID and a couple at-this-point very cheap color SRAMs.)


"Couldn't do better" is a huge window though.

Pretty much any 80-column machine (Apple II or an IBM compatible) in the early 1980s is going to cost you over $1000, and add a couple hundred for the monitor. Being able to say "you can bring this thing home for $200 and hook it to your TV" is a compelling case, even if the customer comes back to buy a $300 disc or $75 tape drive next week.

Thing is, though, is by 1982 (maybe '83 at the latest) this fact that a "business computer" required this level of investment was reasonably common knowledge. The "bring it home for $200" game works when you're appealing to parents to percieve your offering as a smarter, more educational alternative to a video game console, but the backlash against this was already building even in that realm. (Everyone knows about the "Video Game crash of 1983", but very much hot on its heels followed a downturn in the home computer market, in large part driven by disillusion with the true costs and limitations of cheap 40 column computers.) A 40 column toy on a TV set *can* do word processing and spreadsheets, but not well. I suppose what's really hilarious about the Plus/4 is that built-in software in ROM, as bad as it is, needs a disk drive to save and load files, so the argument that you could buy a Plus/4 for its $299 price and do *anything* meaningful with it goes right out the window; it's a $600+ machine right out of the box. In 1984 mail-order vendors would sell you an Apple IIe with two disk drives and a mono monitor for $1600; similar money would get you a Kaypro II. Yes, that's "a lot more money", but you're getting *worlds* more capability.

When you itemize what you get with it it's obvious the "toy" $299 computer actually isn't that great of a deal, and people who needed a computer for business were well aware of this by the time the TED machines actually shipped. Commodore should have known this.

They were putting out a huge range of feelers with stuff like CBM-II and TED machines, but I wonder if that was a product of the time. I'm not sure there was a sensible play for a "long-term" home computing platform in 1982 or 1983. If you built an 8-bit machine, it has a bumpy upgrade path (see: C128 or even the Apple IIgs), and a 16-bit machine was too expensive to get into the home mass market, especially when the big takeaway from the success of the VIC 20 was "if you make a cheap machine that's marginally more competent than Sinclair, you'll sell a bazillion of them."

Sure... and I think the question that's reasonable to ask is why in the world did they think building a million different mutually-incompatible machines was ever going to work. I think maybe the best explanation might lie in that quote that @DrAM19 threw out that talks about Jack Tramiel essentially thinking he was in the calculator business. If you're churning out calculators then, sure, the idea of slapping different function sets and extra buttons on otherwise similar models and saying "this one's a Business calculator, and this one is a Scientific calculator..." makes sense; maybe the execs at Commodore just couldn't grasp the idea that computers didn't work that way and trying to stuff them into that model was just creating a huge support and marketing nightmare. Broadly speaking, sure, you can target market segments based on price, but broadly speaking I think it's clear that companies that responded to market segmentation by creating mutually incompatible lines of machines did worse than those that kept to a unified upwardly-compatible model, and Commodore between 1982 and 1985 was the absolute poster child for doing it the wrong way. If they hadn't had that one-hit wonder with the C64 they'd have completely imploded.

When it comes to the CBM-II line in particular I think it's notable how little Commodore learned from the debacle that was the Apple ///, which was very public by the time the CBM-II machines were in development. In some ways the CBM-II line was actually worse, because at least the Apple /// both had backwards compatibility mode with their previous most popular model of machine and offered some significant functionality improvements in its native mode beyond just extra memory. CBM-II machines had pretty lousy compatibility with the PETs they were intended to replace and didn't even compensate for it by having basic improvements like high-resolution graphics built in. It's kind of baffling to even figure out who they thought they were competing with. The TED at least makes sense in *theory* as a cheap-and-cheerful low-end solution for computer literacy and videotext terminals... but not even remotely as a business machine.
 
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