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AGP compatibility question

I in fact have that 6800. I may have to hunt down a 1.4ghz Tualatin to pair it with for the absolute max fastest win98 system.

The final Socket 478 Pentium 4s had Windows 98 support if you could sort out the chicken and egg problem of the speed patch to keep Windows 98 from crashing on fast CPUs. Sometimes you could get away with dropping the FSB down to 400 MHz to slow the processor down enough to apply the patch.

Of course that's kind of pointless. The only games that would benefit from such a reved up machine probably also run fine under WinXP where the advent of PCIe blows that performance out of the water.

There are some Windows 9x games that don't run right in XP, or are missing features like EAX. Though, you rarely needed the horsepower of anything beyond a Tualatin PIII.
 
I had win98 booting on a 3.2GHz p4. It was unstable, kind of twitchy and prone to freezing. But I did get it to stay up. What is this speed patch you speak of?
 
There are some Windows 9x games that don't run right in XP, or are missing features like EAX. Though, you rarely needed the horsepower of anything beyond a Tualatin PIII.
Yeah thats kinda the core problem. The handful of games that don't play well with XP are generally from earlier in 98's tenure and don't benefit much from increased CPU power.
 
What games or their features are not runable on 2K/XP but typically require hardware that doesn't run Windows 95?
Curious because I might built a W98 dedicated machine soon, I have all parts. Don't know what to put on it.
 
What games or their features are not runable on 2K/XP but typically require hardware that doesn't run Windows 95?
Curious because I might built a W98 dedicated machine soon, I have all parts. Don't know what to put on it.
We've not found any games that exclusively only run under Windows 95 but not 98. But there are many games that will run under 98 but not XP which have higher hardware requirements than you can get under 95.

I haven't got a comprehensive list(seems like something someone should put together), but a lot of games from 1998 or 1999 have hardware acceleration features that will not work under XP and system requirements you're not likely to hit with 95.

This seems like a project worth documenting.



Probably the main thing if you have the parts is a later Voodoo graphics card, like the Voodoo 3 3000. That's not likely to work *great* under 95 and won't work at all on XP.
 
What games or their features are not runable on 2K/XP but typically require hardware that doesn't run Windows 95?
Curious because I might built a W98 dedicated machine soon, I have all parts. Don't know what to put on it.
Early Command and Conquer games that ran in DOS (C&C, Covert Operations, etc.) or Windows 95 (Red Alert.) The former doesn't run properly in NT because the lack of direct hardware access. The latter has problems because of video modes. Both have problems with display resolution because they run in a fixed I think 640x480. Windows XP doesn't like resolutions under 800x600.

The original WON version of Half-Life has trouble in NT based operating systems. The final 1.1.1.0 patch fixes some, but not all of the run issues.

Early Direct X games have trouble on XP because Microsoft depreciated early Direct X calls and some input support, which can result in erratic behavior.
 
A lot of games flat out won't work under Windows 2000. However all the later Might & Magic games will!
 
We've not found any games that exclusively only run under Windows 95 but not 98.
The former doesn't run properly in NT because the lack of direct hardware access.

Ok let me clarify. I have a dedicated DOS, and Windows 95 machines. I do not need to run any 16-bit stuff on this 'new' Win98.
Why I dragged Win95 in there, is because the already built 95 computer is perfectly able to run those early DirectX games, and old stuff that requires direct hardware access. So the reason for prefering Win98 on the new build over NT, can't be NT can't run old stuff, because I already have solutions for that.

I also intend to put Delta in there for sound, which is Windows 98 WDM driver, there is no 16-bit support.

So I guess precise question would be fully native games that have issues running in NT but work in classic Windows; so Red Alert is one, and that edition of Half Life is another.
Another angle to the question, but isn't limited to gaming - a point for Win98SE over Win2K if your platform doesn't have 16-bit devices and you don't intend to run stuff that has DOS heritage? Maybe there are some nice multimedia programs that for one reason or another refuse to work on NT.

A lot of games flat out won't work under Windows 2000. However all the later Might & Magic games will!

Don't think that's fair to say. I don't believe there are many titles that are programmed with pure Windows practice that don't work on 2K. It is those that carry something from the DOS age they do.
I'd like to stick those out of the discussion, because that's a bit into NT vs classic win32 offtopic.

I found it very easy moving to Win2K back then, every major title I played like UT, Heroes 3, Need For Speed 5, worked better with 10 times more stability.
 
Well of course there is also the obscenely obvious question: why not both?

Its not as if dual-booting is that difficult.

I found it very easy moving to Win2K back then, every major title I played like UT, Heroes 3, Need For Speed 5, worked better with 10 times more stability.
You officially have me intrigued.

I've mentioned a few times that 3.2ghz P4 in my collection? Thing freezes constantly on '98 but ran gorgeously under 2000. Hayhaps its time to try it as a win2k gaming machine.
 
There must be a race condition happening in Windows 98. I've seen some fast P4 boards have stability issues in 98 but not NT.

One example from recent memory is the Asus P4S800D-X, it has the terrible SiS 655FX chipset. While it has drivers for Windows 98, it was extremely unstable, even with all necessary patches applied. In Windows 2000 and XP, it was perfectly fine. Since I didn't need another P4 board, I gave this one away.

My similar aged P4P800-E Deluxe with an i865PE chipset had no issues in Windows 98 with a 3.2 GHz Pentium 4.
 
That's probably what's going on. But in fairness I don't really "need" this machine to do win98.

I decided for some added fun to make this thing boot from a U160 SCSI drive. But I have hit a snag: I need the drivers for the Adaptec 19160 SCSI card. I can't find a floppy image to save my life. And I mean any floppy image. I've got the drivers. I've got a Gotek. I've got USB sticks. I've got no way to put the driver files ON a USB stick in the Gotek.

So that's my day.
 
Well of course there is also the obscenely obvious question: why not both?

Its not as if dual-booting is that difficult.
But in fairness I don't really "need" this machine to do win98.

Put your quotes together because that's how I feel...I don't really need anything, and for what it's worth the target age of 98/2K/XP games is the easiest one to run natively on modern Windows of course. All the games I played on 2K I can play on my current machine.

It just is nice to find some purpose for some hardware and maybe keep it for occasional run of something that might not run well on anything else. This is based on a cheapo AT custom build I bought years back off ebay, it came with P5A-B, MMX 166 MHz, 64MB ram, GeForce 2 and a PCI soundblaster, which is an IMO weak build for 98 that it came on with. I never used that installation, the computer was used for parts and really anything needed.

So I gathered that Asus board is really nice and got a K6-2 550 off Ali, and put in some additional RAM. The "too good" gfx card is fine, this comp should now run the early 21st century games relatively OK.

I've moved that Ensoniq/SoundBlaster PCI to OEM Olivetti 233 MMX which has Windows 95 installed. For Win95 AGP graphics is not really needed so an onboard Ati Mach does a fine job there.
Inside K6 I will house my old mAudio Delta.

I've mentioned a few times that 3.2ghz P4 in my collection? Thing freezes constantly on '98 but ran gorgeously under 2000. Hayhaps its time to try it as a win2k gaming machine.

Now for Windows 2000, I've been looking into the same kind of a thing. Very fast single core Pentium, I would reuse it between 2K and DOS for those Build engine games in SVGA.
2K (SP4) is exceptionally stable OS. I've also installed it on a Q35 platform, there is even driver support for that for onboard audio/gfx/lan/sata.
 
There must be a race condition happening in Windows 98. I've seen some fast P4 boards have stability issues in 98 but not NT.

Early 2000s...I made decent side $ fixing people's computers. It was mostly reinstallations of Windows 98 or ME. Most of people had custom builds built off meh components.
IMO Win98 is highly unstable here, the average components sold did not change when XP took over the market, but suddenly computers crashed way way less - for a small time at least, until those 'users' started getting Internet malware. But that woe of XP age doesn't mean that NT isn't miles above the old win32 kernels.

I know that today 98SE is cherished on the Internet, maybe most of you guys had top brand components.
FWIW, there was a brand called Matsonic around for a while, their mainboards were cheap and lauded as not good. I've been daily driving it for years on Win2K and have never, ever had an issue.

We have never seen the 98 source code, I bet it's full of crap. 2K has been partially seen and it's a normally, sanely written parts of OS. Also NT series is overlooked under a lot of contracts in shared code programs, if it had serious platform issues this would pop out. 98 was never under that kind of scrutiny, I do not believe any win32 received any sort of contract important enough to warrant code/build system inspection.
 
Early 2000s...I made decent side $ fixing people's computers. It was mostly reinstallations of Windows 98 or ME. Most of people had custom builds built off meh components.
IMO Win98 is highly unstable here, the average components sold did not change when XP took over the market, but suddenly computers crashed way way less - for a small time at least, until those 'users' started getting Internet malware. But that woe of XP age doesn't mean that NT isn't miles above the old win32 kernels.

I know that today 98SE is cherished on the Internet, maybe most of you guys had top brand components.
FWIW, there was a brand called Matsonic around for a while, their mainboards were cheap and lauded as not good. I've been daily driving it for years on Win2K and have never, ever had an issue.

We have never seen the 98 source code, I bet it's full of crap. 2K has been partially seen and it's a normally, sanely written parts of OS. Also NT series is overlooked under a lot of contracts in shared code programs, if it had serious platform issues this would pop out. 98 was never under that kind of scrutiny, I do not believe any win32 received any sort of contract important enough to warrant code/build system inspection.
I (we) used 98 because it was there. It wasn't all that bad, could do the internet and copy CD's. Sometime drivers caused problems, especially video, and crashes weren't all that uncommon. When XP arrived I jumped on it with glee and never really touch 98 again except for one show & tell retro box. I still have XP up and running and it's a gamers delight.
 
The nostalgia for win98 is based around the superiority of the interface, the element blend of form and function. 2k has all those same things, but since few of us used 2k its not as beloved.

I look back at win98/2k equally. I love how the operating system is just 'there'. It exists so you can run programs. Do a fresh install of either and when you're done it just... Sits there. It doesn't burn up your system resources doing god knows what for god knows why and it won't force you to enter your email address during setup.

They don't make them like they used to.
 
Put your quotes together because that's how I feel...I don't really need anything, and for what it's worth the target age of 98/2K/XP games is the easiest one to run natively on modern Windows of course. All the games I played on 2K I can play on my current machine.
A lot of my favorites either don't run at all under windows 10 or run crappily. IE in software-rendering-only mode. Which admittedly is how I played them all 25 years ago.

That's actually been the main goal of my retro funtimes. See, in 1998 I got my first computer: an eMachines eTower 433i. TA 433mhc Celeron with 32mb of RAM and no graphics accelerator. Real fun, huh? That was my computer until I think 2001, I still didn't get my first real GPU until 2003 at the earliest.

So now I'm digging out all those old games, tossing them onto what would have been an unimaginable dream system in 1998, and seeing what these things looked like with a real GPU, loads of RAM, fast storage, the works. Its been a lot of fun. Although admittedly the more fun part always seems to be building, configuring, and tuning the machine.
 
My similar aged P4P800-E Deluxe with an i865PE chipset had no issues in Windows 98 with a 3.2 GHz Pentium 4.
My board is an Intel D865PERL which I'm guessing is on the i865 chipset. But it does not play well.

That being said... P4 boards aren't terribly expensive. Perhaps I should pick up another one before they graduate to "retro".
 
IMO Win98 is highly unstable here, the average components sold did not change when XP took over the market, but suddenly computers crashed way way less - for a small time at least, until those 'users' started getting Internet malware. But that woe of XP age doesn't mean that NT isn't miles above the old win32 kernels.

What alternate timeline did you live in? Components sold were worlds apart between the Win98 and XP era. CPU clock speeds quite literally tripled and then some in that time span. Dumb video cards turned into programmable GPUs. Computers were advancing so fast that the joke of the time was you could buy a PC today and it would be completely obsolete the next day. There were even commercials about it.

XP had worse stability problems because of hardware failure, as the capacitor plague was ramping up and then the EU ROHS directive hit in 2005/2006 and things were bad for the next decade.

Windows 98 *could* be unstable if misconfigured, but it could also be very stable if configured correctly. The two primary culprits that made 98 unstable was the dual driver model, where you had VxDs side by side with WDM. VxDs allowed direct hardware access, so you had the undesirable condition where a DOS/Windows program and driver could be directly competing with the Windows kernel for access to a device. The next was the cooperatively multitasked kernel, misbehaving applications could take the whole system down. If you could avoid using VxD drivers and avoid badly made applications, Windows 98 ran fairly well. That is until CPUs got too fast and started creating race conditions all over the OS, but Microsoft can't really be blamed for that. Timing sensitive code had been a problem for a very long time by that point, and it was rarely ever fixed. At least Microsoft tried to fix it with patches, the same can't be said for many other applications. You had to work around it.

Like you, I fixed a ton of broken Windows 98 systems, but there were also plenty of them that didn't actually have that many problems. I had several Windows 98 servers that gave me years of reliable service.

I know that today 98SE is cherished on the Internet, maybe most of you guys had top brand components.

Are you kidding? I was poor, I had hand-me-down garbage and antiquated gear my dad bought me from 1997 well into the early 2000s. What was a top of the line system in 1997 was completely inadequate by 2001. Even when I could afford to buy something, it was low budget bottom of the barrel parts. My best system for the longest time was a Super Micro P3TDDE with dual PIII 1000s that I got *very* cheap because it was a demo system that was going to be scrapped. I was in the right place at the right time.

But even with all of that low spec hardware, I had fairly few problems because I knew how to configure it properly. Going into the XP era, I had far more trouble than I ever did in the 98 era due to the aforementioned capacitor plague and ROHS hardware failures. My board level repair knowledge at the time was very low, so unfortunately a lot of things that were otherwise fixable went into the trash.
 
Are you kidding? I was poor, I had hand-me-down garbage and antiquated gear my dad bought me from 1997 well into the early 2000s. What was a top of the line system in 1997 was completely inadequate by 2001. Even when I could afford to buy something, it was low budget bottom of the barrel parts. My best system for the longest time was a Super Micro P3TDDE with dual PIII 1000s that I got *very* cheap because it was a demo system that was going to be scrapped. I was in the right place at the right time.
A dual PIII assuming you had enough RAM and a decent GPU should have been a fantastic system well into the 2000s. I miss my dualie. I'm envious.

CPU clock speeds quite literally tripled and then some in that time span.
I think sometimes this is why 2k and 98 were so good. They were built for an era of MUCH slower CPUs.
 
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