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cromemco Z2 PSU

hush

Experienced Member
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Feb 7, 2022
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MD, USA
hey all! i am eyeing this Z2D chassis that's been up for a little while, i've always had an interest in cromix and S100 stuff in general so i thought it could be an interesting project machine. my main issue is a distinct lack of electrical engineering experience, and looking at the power supply admittedly has me a little nervous :) i am wondering if anyone has had luck modernizing the PSU in these machines similar to Alon's (Alegend on here) H7864-C which just uses standard ATX units?

thank you in advance!

 
The power supplies in these things are very simple. A transformer, bridge rectifiers and some big electrolytics. That is all...

They couldn't be any simpler...

Dave.
 
It isn't a matter of just sticking in an ATX supply, as the voltage rails are higher to feed the on card 12 and 5 volt fixed regulators.
It is possible to modify the ATX supply, but that can be a complex task depending on the design.
Some have multi rail over voltage and over current protection that would need to be modified or removed.

I have just done a small SMPS to run my S100 test rig which only had a simple single rail over voltage protection to modify.
That was reasonably simple, but does require some skill to do without blowing something up.

I would just test the caps and then leave them as is.
I reformed the caps in my S100 chassis and then checked their leakage current against "typical" ratings for those period caps of similar capacity as a final check.
 
Walt (wperko, on this forum) has a project (on his web site) where he used modern power supplies to replace the big honking PS in his S-100 system (IIRC it's also a Cromemco.)

His recommendation is:
Use one of these: https://www.jameco.com/z/HRP-75-7-5...e-Output-7-5-Volt-10-Amp-75-Watt_2101041.html (currently $43.30 - but a 14 week lead time. :cry: )
And two of these: https://www.jameco.com/z/RS-25-15-M...-Output-15-Volt-1-7-Amp-25-5-Watt_323302.html (Only $10.80 and they are in stock.) Take one of these and hook the negative to the S-100 ground and the positive to the +16V pin, then take the other and hook the positive to the S-100 ground and the negative to the -16V pin.

Here is the data sheet for these Mean Well power supplies: https://www.jameco.com/Jameco/Products/ProdDS/2100996.pdf
 
I don't know where the motivation comes from to replace the vintage analog supplies in vintage computers with modern switchmode psu's. I never do it.

There is the argument of course that they are more energy efficient, more compact and result in less generated heat inside the case.

To put it bluntly, the new SMPS's are anachronistic and don't really belong inside a vintage computer. While you are putting them in you may as well throw in an Arduino and replace everything else as well.

The original analog supplies are great and have extremely low noise.

The heat generation issue of the analog supply can be significantly mitigated by keeping the incoming line voltage low in the 100V region. As long as the S-100 boards with 5V regulators on them receive just over 7.5V the regulation remains good. About 8V to 8.5V is an ideal value and allows for some line voltage fluctuations, you simply power your computer via a line Variac and adjust it so the 5V regulator inputs on the S-100 cards are about 8V. Your whole computer will cool down.

The massive uF value capacitors in these old computer supplies "add to the charm" of the vintage computer. These massive capacitors are still available if you take the time to look for them. I like to use new parts rather than trying to reform the old ones, but often that also works too.

There has also been a very foolish trend to try to replace the analog regulators like the 7805, TO-3 7805 (LM309k) or 12V versions on S-100 boards with switching equivalents to lower heat production.

I think this is sheer stupidity, because it grossly underestimates the design of the original analog regulators which have very advanced and effective self protection systems for current overload and thermal dissipation and they never fail in a manner which over-voltages all the precious IC's on your board. The worst you get from them, is over decades of use, their output voltage drops off a little. The same cannot be said for the switchmode equivalents where little thought, if any, has been put into failure modes, and these generate RF hash on the power supply rails.

People appear to want some sort of "quick fix" by eliminating the original analog supplies and throwing in a modern SMPS into a vintage computer. Or maybe it is because anyone can do it, even if they cannot understand the operation of the analog supply, or repair it properly. I don't think it is "vintage computing" (judgmental maybe, I'm known for it). And to me it seems somewhat lazy not to want to rehabilitate the original power supply back to its former glory. If there really is a significant thermal issue, the solution I go for is to add ventilation and/or cooling fans as I did for my SFD1001. disk drive, which does have an analog supply which runs notoriously hot.
 
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I don't know where the motivation comes from to replace the vintage analog supplies in vintage computers with modern switchmode psu's. I never do it.

There is the argument of course that they are more energy efficient, more compact and result in less generated heat inside the case.

To put it bluntly, the new SMPS's are anachronistic and don't really belong inside a vintage computer. While you are putting them in you may as well throw in an Arduino and replace everything else as well.

The original analog supplies are great and have extremely low noise.

The heat generation issue of the analog supply can be significantly mitigated by keeping the incoming line voltage low in the 100V region. As long as the S-100 boards with 5V regulators on them receive just over 7.5V the regulation remains good. About 8V to 8.5V is an ideal value and allows for some line voltage fluctuations, you simply power your computer via a line Variac and adjust it so the 5V regulator inputs on the S-100 cards are about 8V. Your whole computer will cool down.

The massive uF value capacitors in these old computer supplies "add to the charm" of the vintage computer. These massive capacitors are still available if you take the time to look for them. I like to use new parts rather than trying to reform the old ones, but often that also works too.

There has also been a very foolish trend to try to replace the analog regulators like the 7805, TO-3 7805 (LM309k) or 12V versions on S-100 boards with switching equivalents to lower heat production.

I think this is sheer stupidity, because it grossly underestimates the design of the original analog regulators which have very advanced and effective self protection systems for current overload and thermal dissipation and they never fail in a manner which over-voltages all the precious IC's on your board. The worst you get from them, is over decades of use, their output voltage drops off a little. The same cannot be said for the switchmode equivalents where little thought, if any, has been put into failure modes, and these generate RF hash on the power supply rails.

People appear to want some sort of "quick fix" by eliminating the original analog supplies and throwing in a modern SMPS into a vintage computer. Or maybe it is because anyone can do it, even if they cannot understand the operation of the analog supply, or repair it properly. I don't think it is "vintage computing" (judgmental maybe, I'm known for it). And to me it seems somewhat lazy not to want to rehabilitate the original power supply back to its former glory. If there really is a significant thermal issue, the solution I go for is to add ventilation and/or cooling fans as I did for my SFD1001. disk drive, which does have an analog supply which runs notoriously hot.
i really don't need your judgement and i don't see a power supply as anything more than a power supply, sorry! i'm more than happy to keep everything else original and stock and in fact that's my goal, but if i can replace the power supply with something more efficient and less likely to take out components or burn my house down should something fail i'm going to do that. i have kept the original PSU for my 11/83 and would do so in this case in the event someone else needed them and/or wanted to restore them but i have little interest in running ancient power supplies without modern protections if i can avoid it.
 
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There is less probability of a linear power supply from killing something on an S-100 system in my opinion.

There is no voltage regulation (for example) on an S-100 power supply - the regulators are all on the S-100 cards - and this will be the same for all power supplies that you connect up (irrespective of linear or switch mode).

If you only have a transformer (and this is an isolation point from the mains - so a good safety point), a bridge rectifier, and some electrolytic capacitors, there is very, very little to actually go wrong - unlike the probabilistic FMEA for a switch mode power supply.

The only downside of a linear supply is the bl**dy weight!

In my mind, there is very little heat produced by the components used in the Cromemco power supply anyhow. You can tweak the voltages down on a switch mode supply to limit the heat produced by the on-board regulators. But, equally, as Hugo has pointed out, you can reduce the input AC supply voltage a bit to achieve the same result. OK, there is a cost in doing this (a 1:0.X step-down transformer).

OK, a direct short circuit on an S-100 card (on the power-supply side of the on-board regulator) could cause damage to the S-100 backplane. I acquired my first Cromemco backplane because the -16V PCB track had vaporised. However, I believe this to be a hazard related to old computers... You can adjust the current limit setting on a switch mode PSU to avoid this - you can change the fuse size on the Cromemco also...

Just a bit of additional pros and cons to help make your mind up...

Dave
 
i really don't need your judgement and i don't see a power supply as anything more than a power supply, sorry! i'm more than happy to keep everything else original and stock and in fact that's my goal, but if i can replace the power supply with something more efficient and less likely to take out components or burn my house down should something fail i'm going to do that. i have kept the original PSU for my 11/83 and would do so in this case in the event someone else needed them and/or wanted to restore them but i have little interest in running ancient power supplies without modern protections if i can avoid it.

SMPS's designed specifically for computers often have over-voltage and over-current protections. But, many generic commercial SMPS's don't have the over-voltage protections, only excessive current overload protection.

Analog power supplies with just transformers & filter caps & rectifiers don't have a failure mode where they can over-voltage your computer boards, unless say you did something silly like plug a 110V unit into 220V. Generally if a diode in the bridge fails they simply produce more ripple and the average output voltage drops, or as the capacitors fail, same thing, so in this respect they are intrinsically safer and better than an SMPS. Because of this, and the reliability of 5V and 12V analog regulators on vintage S-100 boards, the chips are practically never damaged by power supply issues.

Generally analog supplies are much longer lasting and much more reliable than SMPS, simply because they have less parts and less component stressors. As noted though, for computers they require large heavy transformers with large filter capacitors. It is only weight and cost that saw them lost to history, not safety or reliability issues. They don't burn down houses if enclosed properly. Nor do SMPS's either which are built into metal housings that is. The most dangerous supply you can get for burning down a house is a SMPS, in a plastic housing, because most plastic housings make an excellent hydrocarbon fuel.

Not everybody is interested in keeping vintage computers original. It is identical to the field of vintage car restoration, where you could lift the bonnet on a model T Ford and find that someone had fitted it with a Datsun Bluebird engine, some people think nothing of it, others throw up their hands in horror. Or perhaps furniture restoration too, an 18th century French polished walnut cabinet, fitted with two doors from a Fiat Bambina.

One of the interesting things about the large caps in vintage computers, they still seem to be generally good, even if made in the 1970's and reform well.
 

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I would agree that a linear PSU is far more stable and far less likely to fail than a SMPS.
Use a fast blow fuse of the optimum value with a series VDR to provide soft start for the initial capacitor peak.

I only used a smps since I did not have a suitable transformer, and custom made is now very expensive.
 
I would agree that a linear PSU is far more stable and far less likely to fail than a SMPS.
Use a fast blow fuse of the optimum value with a series VDR to provide soft start for the initial capacitor peak.

I only used a smps since I did not have a suitable transformer, and custom made is now very expensive.
Yes, these days, if you need to replace a transformer, it is a very costly business, if you cannot find an off the shelf one with the correct ratings.
 
Use a fast blow fuse of the optimum value with a series VDR to provide soft start for the initial capacitor peak.
How do you size the VDR (Voltage Dependent Resistor - varistor) and where are you placing it in the circuit -- in series with the transformer on the primary side? In series on the secondary side after the bridge rectifiers? Usually these devices are used for spike suppression and thus placed in parallel with the load on the primary side.

Tutorial: https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/resistor/varistor.html
 
How do you size the VDR (Voltage Dependent Resistor - varistor) and where are you placing it in the circuit -- in series with the transformer on the primary side? In series on the secondary side after the bridge rectifiers? Usually these devices are used for spike suppression and thus placed in parallel with the load on the primary side.

Tutorial: https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/resistor/varistor.html
I don't tend to use VDR's for this application at all.

One reason is that, a transformer itself provides a soft start function, due to its internal resistance.

The internal resistance is the DC resistance of the windings, you can calculate it as a total, by transforming the resistance of one winding into another using the impedance ratio (which is the square of the turns ratio) So that when the transformer's output is grossly overloaded, transiently, when the filter capacitors on the secondary side initially have zero voltage at power up, the secondary voltage on the transformer transiently collapses. Transformers in appliances tend to give a nice soft start for this reason.

This is unlike the case where you have capacitors charging directly from the line power via rectifiers, as they do in SMPS's. The internal resistance of the line power is very very low, so the peak charging currents from the caps on the line side is very high. This is why you will find, in SMPS's, much over 50W rated they tend to have inrush current mitigation with one method or the other.
 
.......on the topic of inrush current mitigation in SMPS's for computer work, a very interesting example of one method is in the power supply for the vintage IBM-5155 computer, have a look at page 9 of this article:

www.worldphaco.com/uploads/The_IBM_5155_POWER_SUPPLY.pdf

They did it using a PUT (programmable unijunction transistor) controlling the activity of a relay which shorted out a series dropping resistor. It is quite a clever circuit.
 
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