Intel 8085 ICE - Considering options

[RetroAND]

Good morning,

As the title implies, I am in need of an ICE for 8085 for my Datamaster. There aren't many on sale and the few in conditions are both expensive per se and expensive to deliver at my location. Not talking about the voltage difference between our European electric network and the one from the USA.

For this reason, I would like to ask if there is any kit to build or any open project to deal with that necessity? What other options would I have?

Thank you in advance!

 

[N. Brown]

The voltage difference between us and Europe is not that big of deal.
Depending on who made the equipment 1) most of the newer equipment as a switch/jumper for that or 2) you might have to by an adapter.
Radio Shack is no longer around and there adapter where only for low Amp devices. The AC cycle frequencies are also different but most adapters also look after that.
..
Now a short not about ICE for the 8085
You should also be looking for the clone ones for the 8085. At one time there where several firms that made a unit. (Old Tektronics models use there own development system as a base). Hp also did.
Or in the other hand if you can find the NSC800 to 8085 development adapter with an active SDO and SDI interface that will be easy to make work. Then you only need the development unit for the computer system. (PC or even Mac)
Or even a unit made for a Z80 microprocessor with a 8085 adapter unit/module.
Back when we where doing system development we normally built out own ICE units and or processor adapters because it was cheaper for us to do so and there where some custom software requirements that most units could not do.
..
You could maybe find a old 8085 ICE for MS-dos and run it under emulation, but some old ones rely on a custom interface board, cables and a adapter socket to deal with as well. They where more of a development base system with a processor socket adapter then just a ICE only emulation.
..
The main bug with a newer ICE unit may be lack of the availably to get the original code on to it. A lot of the newer versions of ICE only support interfaces like a USB connection.
..
you should also look at a 8085 Simulator program if it only the 8085 code
your interested in and not any of the original devices hardware.
..
An old 8085 based multibus/S-100 Bus/STD Bus dvelopment system that has secondary process support. Then it is only the interface unit to the host 8085 microprocessor bus to deal with. As well as a connection to a newer PC to deal with.

Being a X equipment designer and refurbished I have been up that road before with limitations on newer ICE versions when dealing older Fed. Sys. and or Avionic units.
..

 

[RetroAND]

The voltage difference between us and Europe is not that big of deal.
Depending on who made the equipment 1) most of the newer equipment as a switch/jumper for that or 2) you might have to by an adapter.
Radio Shack is no longer around and there adapter where only for low Amp devices. The AC cycle frequencies are also different but most adapters also look after that.
..
Now a short not about ICE for the 8085
You should also be looking for the clone ones for the 8085. At one time there where several firms that made a unit. (Old Tektronics models use there own development system as a base). Hp also did.
Or in the other hand if you can find the NSC800 to 8085 development adapter with an active SDO and SDI interface that will be easy to make work. Then you only need the development unit for the computer system. (PC or even Mac)
Or even a unit made for a Z80 microprocessor with a 8085 adapter unit/module.
Back when we where doing system development we normally built out own ICE units and or processor adapters because it was cheaper for us to do so and there where some custom software requirements that most units could not do.
..
You could maybe find a old 8085 ICE for MS-dos and run it under emulation, but some old ones rely on a custom interface board, cables and a adapter socket to deal with as well. They where more of a development base system with a processor socket adapter then just a ICE only emulation.
..
The main bug with a newer ICE unit may be lack of the availably to get the original code on to it. A lot of the newer versions of ICE only support interfaces like a USB connection.
..
you should also look at a 8085 Simulator program if it only the 8085 code
your interested in and not any of the original devices hardware.
..
An old 8085 based multibus/S-100 Bus/STD Bus dvelopment system that has secondary process support. Then it is only the interface unit to the host 8085 microprocessor bus to deal with. As well as a connection to a newer PC to deal with.

Being a X equipment designer and refurbished I have been up that road before with limitations on newer ICE versions when dealing older Fed. Sys. and or Avionic units.
..

I have no previous experience on how an ICE should be designed and built. If I were to build one with a real 8085 and a microcontroller (let's say an ATMega8515), which are the guidelines I should follow? From the microcontroller to the PC a serial interface could easily be established but I am not sure on how should I control the whole thing.

In any case, thank you in advance.

 

[Bruce Tomlin]

Basically the main point of an ICE is to have control of the hardware that contains the CPU. It lets you test the real hardware with a real CPU that you can control manually, sort of like a front panel but more complicated. These days modern CPUs have built-in debugging support because signal speeds just got too high to do emulation pods. For older hardware it's usually easier to debug your code on a software emulator if the hardware is well-known.

Most ICEs were a little box that you controlled with a computer. But I'm a big fan of the Applied Microsystems 8-bit emulators, and I actually acquired a few, twenty years ago. It's really just a super-duper front panel that (usually) runs its own code on the same CPU in a mirror universe. It can also have up to 64K of overlay RAM that replaces the host device address space, and can have data uploaded at 9600 baud over a serial port. The CPU goes in the pod to keep the signal length short to the device's CPU socket. And they are as awesome as they look, just as long as you don't need to support bank-switching. I even have a couple of null device pods for the Z80 version that let you use it as a standalone trainer.

Unfortunately they did NOT make a version for 6502 or any of the 6800 series except 6809. (I'm still looking for a 6809E pod, or at least schematics that will tell me how to convert a regular 6809 pod. The only known schematics are for the Z80 version.)

 

[N. Brown]

Basically the main point of an ICE is to have control of the hardware that contains the CPU. It lets you test the real hardware with a real CPU that you can control manually, sort of like a front panel but more complicated. These days modern CPUs have built-in debugging support because signal speeds just got too high to do emulation pods. For older hardware it's usually easier to debug your code on a software emulator if the hardware is well-known.

Most ICEs were a little box that you controlled with a computer. But I'm a big fan of the Applied Microsystems 8-bit emulators, and I actually acquired a few, twenty years ago. It's really just a super-duper front panel that (usually) runs its own code on the same CPU in a mirror universe. It can also have up to 64K of overlay RAM that replaces the host device address space, and can have data uploaded at 9600 baud over a serial port. The CPU goes in the pod to keep the signal length short to the device's CPU socket. And they are as awesome as they look, just as long as you don't need to support bank-switching. I even have a couple of null device pods for the Z80 version that let you use it as a standalone trainer.

Unfortunately they did NOT make a version for 6502 or any of the 6800 series except 6809. (I'm still looking for a 6809E pod, or at least schematics that will tell me how to convert a regular 6809 pod. The only known schematics are for the Z80 version.)

Right on a Applied Microsystems 8-bit emulators but even used I donk know if it is in RetroAND budget range. RetroAND might have to find one that is available on an install payment plan for a seller of one. As they noted the cost of a new unit, I think they are looking for a lower price solution.
..
I know what a ICE unit is, my entry was more or less a lower price alternative suggestion or it, if they are willing to do the work.
They did ask for a alternative - What other options would I have? That's all.

​

 

[N. Brown]

I have no previous experience on how an ICE should be designed and built. If I were to build one with a real 8085 and a microcontroller (let's say an ATMega8515), which are the guidelines I should follow? From the microcontroller to the PC a serial interface could easily be established but I am not sure on how should I control the whole thing.

In any case, thank you in advance.

As far as the guidelines I should follow. In this case that could be quite an entry to do. Hopefully another Forum reader will expand on it.
Basically if you can find the complete plans for a unit (ICE) including its firmware and etc. that would be good place to start.
The other solution might be to find a complete old Development System or the complete plans for a unit including its firmware and etc. and its external ICE like related parts..
There should be some photos online some ware of a HP 64000 Development/Emulation System that you can thing as a customizer computer with ICE built in that is attached
a external host processor through a interface unit.
..
In other parts of the world they are using customized SBC with a custom made host processor interface to do the same think, mostly 3Rd world/eastern block country stuff.
They main thing with the SBC is to make sure it can handle many parallel data lines. Other are converting there still function old computer systems to do the same thing.
Some old versions of Byte magazine have projects to expand the computers PIA ports.
..
In house ours where a different, as I kind of hinted in a pervious message.
Anyways it looks like you will have to do some more research on that subject and hopefully someone else expands this entry.

 

[Chuck(G)]

Back in the 70s, when I was developing for the 8085, we used the ICE-85 with an MDS-800. Back then, Intel was initially the only game in town. Then outfits like Biomation got into the racket. 8085 ICEs are really vintage, but finding one complete might be a challenge. Because the 8085 is now considered to be obsolete, I don't know if any new designs are around. But a modern MCU should be able to at least have the resources to do the job.

 

[N. Brown]

Back in Feb of this year in this forums "Vintage Computer Items For Sale or Trade" there was a
Intel iPDS portable CP/M-80 computer - ICE and EPROM programmer available in Pleasanton, California.
They wanted $300 US but they had no shipping options. So a buyer would have to likely make the arrangements for the shipping.
them self. Don't know if it was sold and wither it is in their price range. or not. AS IS, likely How Is as well.

 

[RetroAND]

@N. Brown Thank you for finding that ICE, but for the moment I should refrain from it because it is an ellevated sum which is surely going to rise significantly with the transport and also haven't any guarantee that when it arrives it could work. Too risky at this point, maybe in the future if I am better positioned economically.

On the other hand I think I have materials that might be of use if building one - just I don't know how to do it. If I had the schematics for a pod, maybe could attempt to build something.

In any case thank you everybody

 

[RetroAND]

I have revised my inventory and have 8085s in stock, as well a couple of ESP8266, some arduinos, some bluepill and an assortment of other microcontrollers. If I were to design it as an 8085 serving as a slave of a microcontroller shuch as the ESP, what would be the first control lines to hijack for a simple test?

Thank you very much

 

[marcopolo]

https://www.noicedebugger.com/targets.html (remote debugger)

 

[RetroAND]

https://www.noicedebugger.com/targets.html (remote debugger)

Thank you, I will try it for code analisys but I still require a hardware ICE for port discovery.

EDIT:

If I understand correctly this program does not only serves as a debugger but also specifies how does the messages through serial port should be. There is only a serial port in my target, is for a printer and don't know the port yet. Still this seems a better alternative than having to build a whole ice.

Thank you very much

EDIT2:
After having reviewed it I am not sure if it is what do I need. You see, I should replace the original roms with the monitor and customize it to use the serial port of which I have no information. I think a hardware solution would be better in this case.

Anyways, thank you for your help

 

[marcopolo]

The simplest thing would be to explain your project to us, and we might be able to give you some good advice.
And a photo of the board might be useful.

If you don't know the UART address (INTEL 8251?), there are 2 solutions: disassemble the code in ROM or use a logic analyzer.

It's rare to need an ICE.

 

[RetroAND]

The simplest thing would be to explain your project to us, and we might be able to give you some good advice.
And a photo of the board might be useful.

If you don't know the UART address (INTEL 8251?), there are 2 solutions: disassemble the code in ROM or use a logic analyzer.

It's rare to need an ICE.

Thank you for your reply. The case is pretty straighforward.

This thread is nothing but a spinoff from my main one, where I am studying and developing patches for my IBM 5322 Datamaster. Any information for the assembly can be found there or could be in the future.
Precisely I am in need of an ICE to use in conjunction with a probe to ease port discovery.

Disassembly has already begun but while a few have been recognized there is a bunch of ports still unknown. Disassembly at this point helps knowing which ports are used and if they are input or output but due to the way it's coded recognizing them is very difficult. For this reason I am of need of a device which could issue read/write access to ports in a controlled way. Due to the complexity of the system, I imagine the easiest way would be to replace the CPU with an ICE probe; at the same time I could be wrong and maybe I am complicating myself, for this reason I opened this thread: to discuss what options are or could be on the table.

If possible, I would prefer open sourced solutions over closed ones but closed ones would be also considered. If I had to build a kit instead of an already built solution, that would also be ok for me.

Again, thank you very much

 

[marcopolo]

OK, I understand your problem better.

You could connect a logic analyser to the 8085 and to the chip select (CS) of the ICs you're interested in.
Then start up the 5322 and capture the addresses present on the bus each time a chip select of a peripheral is active.

And to go further, once you have the address of the printer USART, you adapt the NoICE code and put it in ROM instead of the original boot ROM. Then you can do what you want if the original IBM code does not initialise things that are essential for starting up the machine.

 

[N. Brown]

Since you noted ESP8266, some arduinos
Ya, I haven't reply to the last couple of messages as it seems that you want to use a ARM or ESC based SB micro development board as a ICE unit.
To do that with a cheap micro development that lacks enough ports to do a full bus without using a bunch on IO expander chips (plus the code to handle it).
You should be looking at a USB based EPROM/PLA programmer that your SB micro development unit and its software is compatible with, (at the OS level).
Have the Eprom read/programmer read each ROM Chip. Then you are still going to have to link the ROMS address back together properly for the ICE, of course.
..
We use a logic analyzer/ Development system for such tasks. (Mostly built inhouse/custom units).
..
Without more information on ESP board you plan to use for the 8085 being a slave for it, you will not likely get much help on this task.
If you really want to go that way, maybe check out the AGON Light SBC for some inspiration, there was a ARM host interface for a couple of retro micros as well.
That you might want to look at as well.
..
As for real 8085 multiprocessing units most of use the SDO , SDI and RST 7.5 for interprocessor communications as well as the Busrequest, BusAcknowledge, and
other microprocessor signals.
..
If you have some other older computer systems that are S-100 bus, Multibus, or VME or even STD bus based then please give some details about them.
The shared multiprocessing designs for these busses are well documented, so it would be easier to I/F to them. (ASM coding might be required of course).
..
Hopefully this message helps point you to a quicker solution to your issues.
A used logic analyzer still might be out of your budget range as well.

 

[RetroAND]

Since you noted ESP8266, some arduinos
Ya, I haven't reply to the last couple of messages as it seems that you want to use a ARM or ESC based SB micro development board as a ICE unit.
To do that with a cheap micro development that lacks enough ports to do a full bus without using a bunch on IO expander chips (plus the code to handle it).
You should be looking at a USB based EPROM/PLA programmer that your SB micro development unit and its software is compatible with, (at the OS level).
Have the Eprom read/programmer read each ROM Chip. Then you are still going to have to link the ROMS address back together properly for the ICE, of course.
..
We use a logic analyzer/ Development system for such tasks. (Mostly built inhouse/custom units).
..
Without more information on ESP board you plan to use for the 8085 being a slave for it, you will not likely get much help on this task.
If you really want to go that way, maybe check out the AGON Light SBC for some inspiration, there was a ARM host interface for a couple of retro micros as well.
That you might want to look at as well.
..
As for real 8085 multiprocessing units most of use the SDO , SDI and RST 7.5 for interprocessor communications as well as the Busrequest, BusAcknowledge, and
other microprocessor signals.
..
If you have some other older computer systems that are S-100 bus, Multibus, or VME or even STD bus based then please give some details about them.
The shared multiprocessing designs for these busses are well documented, so it would be easier to I/F to them. (ASM coding might be required of course).
..
Hopefully this message helps point you to a quicker solution to your issues.
A used logic analyzer still might be out of your budget range as well.

I only have a STD-compatible computer but won't do the job. It is a CP/M system whose disks have disappeared. It is completely functional but without the OS only sits still as it only contains a 2KB ROM as bootloader and reverse engineering should be made to bring it full again.

The only other backplane computers I have are some Alphatronic P2 and a Junior Computer (untested, may be out of order). None of them is fit for the job.

I will check for logic analyzers in my region. It's very different if they have to cross the Atlantic.

 

[marcopolo]

Sigrock software
+

Supported hardware - sigrok

sigrok.org

 

[marcopolo]

Or simpler:
You connect two 8-Bit latches (like 74LS574) to the 8085 address bus and the 574 clock to the CS of the circuit whose address you are looking for via an inverter (74LS04).
And you read the address stored on the latch outputs with a voltmeter or you add LEDs.

Or something more luxurious:
You connect 4 TIL311 hexadecimal displays directly to the 8085 bus and the strobe input to the CS of the circuit to be monitored.

These are just ideas, I haven't checked or validated anything.

 

[N. Brown]

I only have a STD-compatible computer but won't do the job. It is a CP/M system whose disks have disappeared. It is completely functional but without the OS only sits still as it only contains a 2KB ROM as bootloader and reverse engineering should be made to bring it full again.

The only other backplane computers I have are some Alphatronic P2 and a Junior Computer (untested, may be out of order). None of them is fit for the job.

I will check for logic analyzers in my region. It's very different if they have to cross the Atlantic.

Thanks for letting me know what you had available that wasn't in use.
Ya, the Alphatronic P2 and the Junior Computer would take a lot of work. I take it the Junior Computer is not a IBM PC Junior.
The shipping, duties for a unit to cross the Atlantic will be quite high plus the exchange rate could also come into effect.
If you can find a cheap 8088 processor card and a book disk for it, then the STD bus computer has a chance to become a stable unit with some other hardware attached to it.
..
Their could be a couple of other options if your German is really good, but I leave that out for now, As it might be impossible to find a free development board for one of those anyways.
Hopefully some else reading this message can also offer some help as well.