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the how much people

MikeS said:
So if I understand this correctly: many of us here have a good idea of what a certain computer is worth and we're going to be annoyed and bitch if someone tries to sell it for substantially more than we think it's worth, but if they ask us what we think it _is_ worth then we're going to ignore them or tell them to take a hike.
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No, I've had people ask me here in NZ and I usually give them a range. I also suggest they monitor prices for a while though. If people can get a really good price for a micro, I say good luck to them. Like this one on Trade Me at the moment for example.

Tez
 
tezza said:
No, I've had people ask me here in NZ and I usually give them a range. I also suggest they monitor prices for a while though. If people can get a really good price for a micro, I say good luck to them. Like this one on Trade Me at the moment for example.

Tez
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Well, I didn't mean you Tez; I was replying to the people who bitch about someone asking us what something's worth and think we shouldn't reply, and then also bitch because someone sells something for more than they think it's worth.

Anyway, it's been fun but 'nuff said.
 
MikeS said:
ASCII?? Binary?? COPYCMD environment variable?? Wildcards?? Huh??
Geez, I just want to copy this Word file to a floppy disk so I can give it to my son... that sure doesn't tell me how; I don't even see the floppy disk mentioned anywhere. Let's see; destination = directory or file name?? How do I tell it "the floppy disk"? What's a directory got to do with it? Doesn't the computer already know the name?
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Yes, but let's be fair Mike, I only copied part of the page. The full page here (number 1 on my Google) has examples at the end which demonstrate quite lucidly how copying is done and it can be followed without wading through all the switches.

The question I gave just needed a short reply so maybe it wasn't the best example. But the point I am trying to make (and I think you agree with) is that people should at least make an attempt to dig a little before using forum members as a reference.

I remember a year or two ago I had a student in a distance course who would email me incessantly asking me to explain personally concepts and terms (for an assignment). These things were quite clearly explained in the textbook, sections of which the students were guided to read. His questions would have been a legitimate if he could not understood what was written there but the fact was this student had not even bothered to OPEN the textbook! Once I found this out I just pointed him to the appropriate sections of the textbook.

I've been helped by a lot of people in this forum including yourself. I appreciate that enormously and in turn try to be generous with my own knowledge. I won't answer every question asked though, if the explanation is long and the information is definitely "out there" in an easily found wikipedia entry. However, I agree that a few encouraging words and some guidence on how to go there probably doesn't go amiss.

As you say, 'enuf said.

Tez
 
MikeS said:
I'd think you were nuts, but if I had a supply and some people were actually paying you $400 I'd open a stand next door offering them for $300. If someone actually asked me what they're really worth I'd probably tell them.

So if I understand this correctly: many of us here have a good idea of what a certain computer is worth and we're going to be annoyed and bitch if someone tries to sell it for substantially more than we think it's worth, but if they ask us what we think it _is_ worth then we're going to ignore them or tell them to take a hike.

Have I got that right?
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Where did I say to ignore them or tell them to take a hike? The value of common items has more to do with location and when it is offered then anything else. Thee are people here offering stuff for free+ shipping that have value but nobody wants them. Uncommon items, well go look them up on ebay.

Somebody else started this thread because they were bothered by it, I just added my 2 cents worth.
 
MikeS said:
Well, I rarely disagree with you, Andrew, but to equate Viagra or Nike SPAM with someone joining a list of experienced computer collectors to inquire about the value of some computer equipment is just plain ridiculous. We have an auction site and we have buy and sell forums, so how can someone asking what to sell something for be off-topic or even spam? Presumably if he or she actually posted it for sale for $x or BO which would probably turn into a discussion of its value anyway, that would be OK?
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Hi Mike! Well I certainly respect your right to your opinion. You are smart and well respected part of the vintage/classic computer community so I will take your words under advisement. Just to be clear though I have *no* problem with hobbyists selling, trading, or even asking what their items are worth. They conduct themselves within the context of the vintage computer hobby and I am respectful of them in their pursuits.

My issue is with forum abuse and those who spam these forums are harming us all. I feel it is fully appropriate for the mods to delete postings which abuse the forum to preserve the quality of the community. Those who abuse it through crass commercial interests or are disruptive with incendiary off topic postings are violating the letter and the spirit of the posted rules and should be dealt with appropriately.

The good people here at vintage-computers.com are a treasure and we should all value this community. I think this level of common interest and general commity are rare on internet forums. My hat is off to Erik and the VC mods. You do an excellent job and should be commended.

Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch
 
As with the others and despite our little arguments aside I think everyone pretty much would be happy with a potential sticky regarding price posts perhaps explaining why they're difficult to answer and how to get that answer ones self and/or an additional price/value group if the admins would humor that. Both are good ideas I think and don't restrict folks from asking but could perhaps help some folks filter out those responses ( me I always just click new posts so I don't use the category layout) but adding a category may be a good idea.

I also thought the $400 McD's was funny since I recently received this email regarding a year old happy meal so maybe your $400 is gonna be a good deal soon? ;-)
 
@ Unknown_K:
I didn't mean you personally and apologize if that's how it came across; obviously I'm playing fast and loose by lumping everyone in the thread together, with a little sarcasm added for spice.

It just struck me as ironic that in this thread and elsewhere people complain because sellers don't seem to know the 'real' (?) value of something and in the same thread it's being suggested that we ignore them when they do ask us what that value is.

@ Andrew:
I suppose that you have a point if the poster is obviously a primarily commercial enterprise and asks often enough, but what's wrong with someone with no interest whatsoever in classic computers who's just found an Altair while cleaning out his deceased dad's attic asking us what it's worth and then disappearing to put it up on eBay? Even the commercial posts would probably be interesting to someone but hardly the same as Viagra or Nike spam in any case.

@Tez:
Maybe it's just our respective backgrounds. You seem to want to teach whether the person wants to learn or not, and then help, while I want to help first and then guide the person to more material if they're interested; they may just want to know what time it is, not how to build a watch or even wade through the whole 50 page badly written instruction manual just to find how to display the time.

In general:
I think the purpose of forums like this is to welcome newcomers to the hobby, help each other if we can, facilitate the exchange/gifting/buying/selling/swapping of related stuff, and just be a friendly place to hang out. I also think that collective judgements, restrictions, nitpicking, 'should's etc. aren't really necessary or appropriate.

What's so wrong with a section where people can ask and discuss the value of an item? Is this a big issue? I don't see why there's even any argument; just like all the other topics you don't have to reply or even read it if you don't want to, so what's the fuss?

'nuff said. Honest.. For sure this time. Really.

PS: Don't get the wrong idea; however this comes across, I have nothing but respect and appreciation for the folks in this thread and am just spouting my thoughts and perspectives, not by any means intending to criticize anyone personally.
 
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FWIW I think a sticky would be a better idea than a "What's it Worth" forum. If a forum is dedicated to "What's it Worth" discussions then isn't there the possibility or even more junk posts and abuse? What happens when less scrupulous sellers start signing up to post to offer their "Expert" opinions on the value of something that they may themselves be selling? That would be comparable to the spam emails where someone praises some investment deal to artificially inflate the price to increase their return. Maybe a sticky providing an explanation on the subjectiveness of vintage computer prices alone with suggestions to list the item on the marketplace or, if the OP is just trying to determine if the computer is worth saving from the landfill/recycling station, to suggest offering it to a community member or even encouraging the poster to take up collecting on whatever scale they are comfortable with. The sticky could even give suggestions on other ways to dispose of computers that are not vintage (that 4 year old P4 that just doesn't cut it with Jr's latest games) such as donating the systems to organizations that refurbish useable computers for Youth Centers, church groups, or other services that can get the computers to people who could benefit from them.

Sorry for the rambling, just my .02c
 
It seems that people are generally unaware of the "Completed Items" search function on eBay. Simply browsing eBay they see a bunch of "Buy It Now" machines with $400 pricetags, not realizing that they'll NEVER sell for that much.

Another issue, some particular items sell so infrequently that none that have sold within the last 90 days, making it impossible to determine current market value. Or there is such a low demand that if a few of them hit eBay in the same month the market is saturated with surplus machines, creating a situation in which the current value has become $0.

Also, the value is greatly influenced by condition. Maybe there's four of a particular computer for sale, and four serious collectors interested in acquiring. The end up in a bidding war for the very best example that eventually closes at 100X the usual going rate, meanwhile the other three sell for $2 each. Furthermore, other people learn of that one high-priced example and dig dozens of similar machines out of the closets and attempt to sell into an already-saturated market....
 
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You may add to that that vintage computers aren't like paintings and other rare objects. 5 years means a lot for computing but it means nothing for a 200 year old painting.
What may be rare today might be common tomorrow and vice versa.
 
mbbrutman said:
I'm not particularly pleased when somebody registers just to ask what their item is worth.
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I see a plus side to people doing this. That is that it seems to me that they always get a low answer (compared to ebay), and I think that gives the rest of us a chance to PM the asker with an offer to buy the item.

It seems like it is still pretty easy to collect used computers by going to ebay, but the more rare items don't seem to be showing up. I dunno, it almost seems like we should advertise. Sort of a "cash for clunkers" type of thing :)

Sean
 
lol Sean, I somewhat like that also where it does give you a chance to talk to them about it. The bright side is that a lot of folks won't realize that ebay doesn't have realistic prices in a lot of cases there are some pretty oddball auction results although one could still argue "it happened.. it sold for it.." but still. I just like that it can end up with some serious collectors instead of a piece of art work or torn apart for pieces or scrap. My most disappointing times are when I'm out of cash and see no interest in some posts here with them ending up as "art work" .. not to the posters fault mind you but like others I'm also reluctant despite the good deal to pick up systems I already have. I'd rather let others end up with those to spread the wealth and life of the history.
 
Floppies_only said:
It seems like it is still pretty easy to collect used computers by going to ebay, but the more rare items don't seem to be showing up. I dunno, it almost seems like we should advertise. Sort of a "cash for clunkers" type of thing :)

Sean
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Exactly what rare items do not show up on ebay? You do have to realize that real rarities do not show up at auction daily/monthly/yearly in many other established collectable hobbies, and when they do it is a big deal. Many people who collect keep things in their collection until they die (coin/stamp world). If I seen an inverted 24 cent Jenny airmail stamp on ebay (or the major auction houses) every week I would be shocked the market has crashed. Real rarities do not get traded often, people spend a mint to find them and keep them.
 
My $0.02 (after skimming all the above posts) would be to have a "How to find out how much your stuff is worth" sticky that states the format it should be posted in, such as Location, make/model etc, perhaps a "form" that can be copied and pasted. It could also explain that ebay is a good option and a lot of the standard responses I see given to these types of posts, it could also go on to explain that someone on this forum may be interested etc.

Since there is a major possibility for SPAM there, the format should be strictly adhered to, if it is not posted as it says in the sticky it gets deleted. Simple as that (more or less).

I think a sticky like that would probably save us a lot of repetition and time.

Some of the questions I have seen of this nature have had some interesting things, that, though I may not be interested in, someone else might be and in some cases it may be worth jumping in with an offer before it hits ebay (better for the seller and buyer in some cases), so they should definatly be welcome and even encouraged (to a point).

If someone else suggested this above, then I apologize for not reading your post, and agree with your idea whole heartily.
 
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Unknown_K said:
Exactly what rare items do not show up on ebay? You do have to realize that real rarities do not show up at auction daily/monthly/yearly in many other established collectable hobbies, and when they do it is a big deal.
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Yeah, if somebody found a thousand "inverted jenny" stamps I imagine there would be a lot of angry people. The things that I'd been noticing seem conspicuous by their absence on ebay are genuine IBM computers from the Windows 3.1 era that are capable of running it well. ATs, PS/2 with four megs of RAM.

I had been thinking that if I get tired of working with my XTs running Works or WordPerfect I would upgrade to Word for Windows, but none of the sellers seems to know what they've got.

However, I solved the problem when I remembered that I have a couple of biege G3s and a copy of Office '98 on CD. I don't like the new "look and feel" of Word and would prefer to use an older version, and the G3 should be fast enough. Although for balancing my checkbook and keeping track of my credit card balances I'd like to use Excel on my Mac Classic II. That's a fun system to use and it's quiet because I removed the hard drive (and plugged in an external superdrive).

I lost an auction for the books for the Heathkit ET-3400 interfacing course. I have the parts kit and I bid $78. Boy, that other guy really wanted it bad :)

Sean, meandering through another long post

P.S.: This is the first I saw your post - I wasn't ignoring you.
 
lutiana said:
My $0.02 (after skimming all the above posts) would be to have a "How to find out how much your stuff is worth" sticky that states the format it should be posted in

[...]

someone else might be and in some cases it may be worth jumping in with an offer before it hits ebay (better for the seller and buyer in some cases)
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I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that I think the VCF members who answer "how much is it worth" posts usually lowball the price. I can only remember one example, that was the guy who had worked for IBM and had been supplied with a 5150 with enhanced graphics display (to my surprise, they aren't called EGA monitors by IBM) and the expansion unit. He also had a bunch of software for the machine. IIRC, somebody told him it was worth $200, and nobody else cast doubt on the figure.

The guy made an initially unsuccessful attempt to sell and then waited until he got the $500 that he was asking for. I had asked him if he would sell me the monitor separately but he said, IIRC, not at this time.

I think people are lowballing on purpose to try to get things from uninformed people for low prices. But I know that at some point this will keep people from going through the major hassel and expense of packaging up a system to ship it. I think we are making extra business for the landfill operators.

By the way, I only cited one example but my recollection is that this has happened more times. I can't remember it not happening. Meanwhile the marketplace is usually devoid of the stuff that can still be had on ebay.

Well, that's my 8" howitzer round's worth. Polarize the hull plating. :)

Sean
 
I would not call it "lowballing" but rather an indication what the stuff typically goes for on a bad day. Sure, all of us who ever sell something from our collection once in a while strikes gold and meets a buyer willing to spend virtually anything to have the item, but just because a 5150 once sold for $500 doesn't mean every 5150 will meet that amount.

I see too many ads where people have cleaned the garage and found an old computer which they try to sell for best offer, and specifically write that low bidders should not bother. Well, it is great for them if they get the right buyer, but I sense a fair deal of those computers end up at the dump three months later when no buyer was willing to pay what the seller had expected. It is in the light of this I would rather tell someone a 5150 with EGA monitor may be easily sold at $75, than if the seller tries real hard he will get those $500 after a while. If too many $500 posts show up and get indexed by Google, people outside of the vintage computing hobby will get too high estimates what most of us really would be willing to pay.

Then there are those of us who have the strong belief vintage computers should have practically no monetary value. It means vintage computers should be swapped around, but rarely or never be sold. I don't adhere to that "religion", as I quickly came to learn anything with a high demand but limited supply creates a market value, like it or not.

So to sum it up, when someone asks "what is this computer worth", they should rather ask at least four questions:

1. What is the most I can ask for it and be 100% certain to find a buyer. Sometimes it can be as low as $1, sometimes much higher.

2. What is the typical selling price on the open market?

3. What is the concluded market value? Often collectors value a computer slightly higher than it actually sells for!

4. What is the best price I could expect if I advertise it well and for long?

Then we have factors such as location, condition of the item, any rare or useful peripherals etc to weigh in. Often the "how much" people don't bother to list all that is included or don't know which items are worth mentioning specifically. Even if they supply an image of the system, it may take a trained eye to spot one particular piece of hardware or software. Then it is up to the person who replies to mention this particular item or not, a little depending on whether the responder would be interested in buying it or not. Yes, it would be a very sneaky thing to do, to give a fair quote for a base system but secretly knowing this one has something extra, but then again we all are humans, who have evolved through thousands of years by being sneaky to eachother.
 
My canned response to "How much is this worth?" is "At least a dollar."

A thing is worth whatever it'll fetch. If I tell you more than you actually get, you'll be angry with me. If you get more than I tell you, you'll probably go your merry way, counting your filthy lucre without even thanking me or offering me at least a beer. So there's nothing but grief for me by answering your question.

Offer me a 20% commission in the sale and we can talk.
 
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