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My two retro PCs (third is still work in progress)

S

schlang

Member
Joined
May 8, 2011
Messages
43
First of all, I am a lazy person :)

So my retro PCs must match these requirements:


  • only one set of input devices using a 4-port KVM
  • in addition to the computer LCD screen, the Plasma TV must be connected via DVI resp. DVI-HDMI
  • only one main sound control unit
  • midi rack must be switched dynamically without using midi-through
  • always WIN98 SE as OS since it contains drivers for every hardware, in addition DOS 7.x has benefits like FAT32 and >2GB partitions
  • silent but with sufficient cooling
  • no slowdown software (messes around with joystick input processing etc.)
  • no CF cards as HDD replacement (Windows kills them with its I/O)

so here we go:

Retro PC#1 built in a SilentMAXX ATX case:
CPU

  • AMD K6-III+ 400MHz, by default jumpered to 200MHz
  • using K6DOS.SYS it can be switched dynamically between 133-400Mhz

Mainboard:

  • DFI K6XV3+/66 with VIA MVP3 chipset and 128MB SDRAM

Hard disks:

  • IBM DHEA 38451 8,4GB Ultra DMA
  • IBM DHEA 36481 6,4GB Ultra DMA
  • Using Vantec Vortex HDD cooler for cooling and noise reduction

CD-ROM:

  • Toshiba Samsung DVD-ROM Drive SH-D162
  • Allows software speed-down and has great CD-R / DVD-R compatibility

Graphics:

  • NVidia Geforce4 Ti 4600, likes DOS thanks to VBE 3.0 and has enough power for Direct3D in Windows
  • Last NVidia AGP generation which fits the DFI board (AGP 3.3V)
  • GPU cooler is a NVSilencer V1

3Dfx:

  • Diamond Monster 3D Voodoo1 for 100% GLIDE compatibility
  • Voodoo2 has too much issues with first generation of GLIDE games

Sound card #1:

  • Sound Blaster AWE64 Gold, best "quality" and compatibility
  • S/PDIF output for recording FM and EMU-8000 midi game music

Sound card #2:

  • Gravis Ultrasound PNP Pro, best of all Ultrasound cards with 512K Onboard RAM and additional 2MB SIMM
  • Unneccessary ressources like gameport, blaster emulation, midi are deactivated to spare ports, IRQs and DMAs

Sound card #3:

  • Roland SCC-1 for providing MPU401 output only

Sound card #4:

  • Sound Blaster Live 5.1 incl. LiveDriveII for Windows game (EAX, too)


Images:










Retro PC#2 built in a Proline AT case:
CPU

  • Intel 486DX2-66Mhz

Mainboard:

  • Asus 486SP3 with SiS Chipsatz and 64MB FPM RAM

Hard disk:

  • IBM DHEA 36481 6,4GB, yet the board has no Ultra DMA support
  • Using Vantec Vortex HDD cooler for cooling and noise reduction

CD-ROM:

  • Toshiba Samsung DVD-ROM Drive SH-D162
  • Allows software speed-down and has great CD-R / DVD-R compatibility

Graphics:

  • Matrox Mystique 220, likes DOS thanks to VBE 2.0 and 4MB video memory allows higher resolutions in Windows

Sound card #1:

  • Sound Blaster AWE64 Gold, best "quality" and compatibility
  • S/PDIF output for recording FM and EMU-8000 midi game music

Sound card #2:

  • Gravis Ultrasound PNP Pro, best of all Ultrasound cards with 512K Onboard RAM and additional 2MB SIMM
  • Unneccessary ressources like gameport, blaster emulation, midi are deactivated to spare ports, IRQs and DMAs

Sound card #3:

  • MediaVision Pro Audio Spectrum 16 for native PAS support

Sound card #4:

  • Roland MPU-IPC-T for providing MPU401 output only

Images:








MIDI-Rack:

  • Yamaha MU-50 for XG support
  • Roland SC-55 for GS / General MIDI support
  • Roland SC-55mkII for GS / General MIDI support (deactivated since it has no more "fallback instrument" capability in contrast to the SC-55)
  • Roland CM-32L for 100% LAPC-I support
  • Roland MT-32 for old Sierra games support (CM-32L sounds different)


Image:




So how are they connected:
KVM:

  • Input devices are PS/2 Microsoft Wireless Desktop Elite keyboard and mouse
  • LCD monitor Samsung Syncmaster 960BF
    -> unfortunately a 5:4 LCD, but I'm looking for a 4:3 right now
  • Retro PC#1 loops VGA output of the Geforce through the Monster 3D, no problem thanks to high quality loop cable
  • VGA signal will be converted to DVI using a ATEN VGA-DVI converter

Plasma TV:

  • Retro PC#1 has thanks to dual view direct DVI-HDMI connection
  • Retro PC#2 only has one VGA port so I have to manually switch between KVM and Plasma TV

MIDI:

  • MIDI Through is bad because it adds 10ms per device and each device must be powered on.
  • That's why I use a EES MIDI Thru Box which provides up to 8 MIDI devices to two different inputs

Sound:

  • MIDI Rack is attached to a Behringer MiniMon Mixer angeschlossen, providing 4 separate inputs
  • Behringer Mixer Line-Out goes to the AUX-In of the Sound Blaster X-Fi Elite Pro Breakout Box connected to my main PC
  • Both retro PCs are connected to the Line-In of the Sound Blaster X-Fi Elite Pro in my main PC
  • Retro PC#1 connects GUS output to the Line-In of the AWE64 Gold
  • Retro PC#2 connects GUS output to the Line-In of the AWE64 Gold, alternatively the output of the PAS16


Images: (first image shows main PC to the left)







Work in progress:

Retro PC#3 built in a Proline AT case:
CPU

  • Intel 386DX-40 CPU @33Mhz
  • Cyrix 387 coprocessor

Mainboard:

  • Robotech GMB-386UMC with UMC Chipsatz and 32MB RAM

Hard disk controller (bought, not delivered yet):

  • Promise EIDEMAX
  • Promise EIDEMAXX II

Hard disk:

  • IBM DHEA 36481 6,4GB, yet the board has no Ultra DMA support
  • Using Vantec Vortex HDD cooler for cooling and noise reduction

CD-ROM:

  • Toshiba Samsung DVD-ROM Drive SH-D162
  • Allows software speed-down and has great CD-R / DVD-R compatibility

Graphics:

  • Orchid Kelvin 64 (CL-5434) 1MB

Sound card #1:

  • Sound Blaster Pro CT1330 Rev. 6, compared to other SB Pro revision least noise and hiss

Sound card #2:

  • Gravis Ultrasound MAX with 512K Onboard RAM
  • Unneccessary ressources like gameport, blaster emulation, midi are deactivated to spare ports, IRQs and DMAs

Sound card #3 (still looking):

  • MediaVision Pro Audio Spectrum (8 bit) for native PAS support

Sound card #4:

  • Roland MPU-IPC-T for providing MPU401 output only
 
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How are you running the machines through a KVM without blowing out their keyboard fuses?
 
Chuck(G) said:
How is a K6-2 system considered to be retro or vintage? I still use one for work today (has Win2K loaded on it).
Click to expand...

The K6-III+ was launched in April 2000, which means today it is more than 11 years old. How much older must hardware get to earn the title "retro" or "vintage"?



lutiana said:
How are you running the machines through a KVM without blowing out their keyboard fuses?
Click to expand...

The KMV connectors for the 486 and the 386 use a DIN-PS/2 adapter.

What exactly is/should be the problem here? PS/2 (mini-DIN) and DIN both use 5V power
 
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schlang said:
The K6-III+ was launched in April 2000, which means today it is more than 11 years old. How much older must hardware get to earn the title "retro" or "vintage"?
Click to expand...

By that logic, the P3 should be "vintage" (launched in 1999), but you're not going to find anyone here who considers it--or even the PII--to be vintage.

I've got socks older than that. I'll allow that a good case could be made for anything pre-Bill Clinton, however. If it can boot from a CD, it's probably not vintage.
 
Well, the K6 saves me the trouble of building several machines to match a speed range beginning with a Pentium 100 (1994) up to a Pentium II-400 (1999). Playing "US Navy Fighers" or "Wing Commander 3" with it fits at least my understanding of retro.

By the way, even my 386 from 1993 (no pre-Bill) boots from CD :p
 
Eh, he did say retro...and the post is not exclusively focusing on the K6 box...

It's retro enough to be 'retro' but not vintage. Win98 is the key here - it makes it retro. Win2k would place it somewhere in that void between cool and just old. It depends on what you grew up with, of course, and your reasons for keeping the machine.

I had, until last night, a K6-2 based box just for the role of 'Windows 98 Gaming'...GeForce 2 with a Voodoo2. I've disassembled it though to give away or scrap the case and motherboard since they're nothing special, and I'll rebuild it sometime in the future. It's retro to me because, being 21, Win98 is...well...retro. I would never call it vintage. Retro can be defined, sure, but will always vary from person to person because of what the definition is.
 
Imho the difference between retro and vintage is that vintage hardware is useless (meaning that the owner has no more purpose for it than just owning).
 
schlang said:
[*]Roland SC-55mkII for GS / General MIDI support (deactivated since it lacks some instrument compared to the SC-55)
Click to expand...

Eh, this is incorrect. See here for an explanation: http://queststudios.com/smf/index.php/topic,2276.msg23603.html#msg23603

Sound card #1:

  • Sound Blaster Pro CT1330 Rev. 6, compared to other SB Pro revision least noise and hiss

...

Sound card #3 (still looking):

  • MediaVision Pro Audio Spectrum (8 bit) for native PAS support
Click to expand...

A large number of games/drivers expect the PAS and SB to use DMA 1. Given that neither card is software configurable, and the fact that the SBPro has DMA sharing issues, you might be asking for trouble with this setup. :)

There are a number of cards that are both software configurable and SBPro-compatible that may be easier to work with. In addition, Media Vision's Thunder Board was actually designed to work alongside a PAS.
 
Cloudschatze said:
Eh, this is incorrect. See here for an explanation: http://queststudios.com/smf/index.php/topic,2276.msg23603.html#msg23603
Click to expand...

Well, without the "instrument fallback" there are games with midi tracks which will lack instruments (thus sounding wrong), e.g. Inferno 2.
But you are right, I should change the statement why I prefer the mkI over the mkII.


Cloudschatze said:
A large number of games/drivers expect the PAS and SB to use DMA 1. Given that neither card is software configurable, and the fact that the SBPro has DMA sharing issues, you might be asking for trouble with this setup. :)

There are a number of cards that are both software configurable and SBPro-compatible that may be easier to work with. In addition, Media Vision's Thunder Board was actually designed to work alongside a PAS.
Click to expand...

That's interesting to know, because I have a PAS16 in my 486 which is fully set up through a device driver (working perfectly on IRQ3 and DMA3 with all games tested so far). The original PAS can't be configured in the same?
 
schlang said:
Well, without the "instrument fallback" there are games with midi tracks which will lack instruments (thus sounding wrong), e.g. Inferno 2.
Click to expand...

Indeed, but this isn't the fault of the playback device. Rather, the blame is entirely with the composer.

That's interesting to know, because I have a PAS16 in my 486 which is fully set up through a device driver (working perfectly on IRQ3 and DMA3 with all games tested so far). The original PAS can't be configured in the same?
Click to expand...

The PAS can be configured for IRQ 3/DMA 3 via jumpers:

pas.gif


The problem remains, however, that most of the early PAS support expects the use of IRQ 7/DMA 1 (Sierra's SCI1 games). That said, I'm sure Sierra's PROAUDIO.DRV driver can be modified to accommodate the other settings... (Not that I can do this, mind you. :) )
 
Thanks for clearing things up, I'm sure the Sierra problem can be dealt with.

As for now, I still have another PAS16 card, but my 386 only has one 8bit slow left. Workaround could be plugging the SB Pro in that slot (technically it should work on I7 and D1), but I really would like to have the original PAS card :)
 
schlang said:
The KMV connectors for the 486 and the 386 use a DIN-PS/2 adapter.

What exactly is/should be the problem here? PS/2 (mini-DIN) and DIN both use 5V power
Click to expand...

I have no idea, all I know is that every time I have tried this with various machines it blows their keyboard fuses. Apparently my experience is unique?


schlang said:
By the way, even my 386 from 1993 (no pre-Bill) boots from CD :p
Click to expand...

Now that is rather unique. Must be a very late 386.
 
schlang said:
By the way, even my 386 from 1993 (no pre-Bill) boots from CD :p
Click to expand...

It wasn't that long ago on this forum that 386 and 486 machines were included, but not considered "vintage" (or words to that effect).

Sorry to be splitting hairs, but if the PII is considered to be off-topic, then so must the K6-2.

Besides, the Pentium-era systems aren't nearly as interesting (and are far too common) than the earlier systems.
 
Chuck(G) said:
It wasn't that long ago on this forum that 386 and 486 machines were included, but not considered "vintage" (or words to that effect).

Sorry to be splitting hairs, but if the PII is considered to be off-topic, then so must the K6-2.

Besides, the Pentium-era systems aren't nearly as interesting (and are far too common) than the earlier systems.
Click to expand...
Technically it's not off-topic, as TS mentioned a couple of his retro rigs. He never called them "vintage" ;)
And retro is basically what the word means:Going back. In this case it's going back to the 98SE era along with it's hardware.

What is vintage and what is not will change due to how young computer history is.
Some people may consider anything predating x86 "stone age" instead of "vintage"

Edit:I've just done some searching on the wiki, and apparently the whole aspect of retro computing is totally missing!!
It's either about Sinclairs and old Mac's, or about old consoles. But nothing about retrorigs like a Glide rig.
Dunno, but that's kinda eerie...

Edit2:Woops, just realised this was posted in "Your vintage computer collections" -_-
I also read in another topic (forgot which one) someone was going to scrap a Super 7 computer and bin all the hardware because it wasn't special enough...I remember the exact same reasons 9 years ago that caused people to bin 486's and 386's.
Even though it may be considered junk now, things will be different in say 5 or 10 years time.

It's a shame the "What is considered to be vintage" topic is locked. Anyway, for me a vintage computer is a computer old enough to fit in an AT (or XT) computer case.
This makes the boundary between vintage and retro along the Pentium/K6 and the Pentium 2/K6-2.
But retro is basically anything that can be reasonably accepted as a computer which purpose is solely for experiencing hardware in a way similar to when said hardware was new, but is considered to be old-fashioned, or just "old" or "too slow" to do any modern say stuff with them.
An example could be using a Pentium 3 with a Vortex 2 and a Voodoo 5 for old Glide games.
No sane "normal" person would even consider using such a machine these days where it's all Quad Core and Windows 7/8/9/whatever.
 
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Lie long enough and everything you own will be "vintage'. I still use SS7, P3, Socket A, etc. systems--they run Win9x and Win2K just fine. What kills them is what passes for software today-awful bloatware. I still use a 16MHz 386 for diskette analysis because it supports the DOB as well as MatchPoint card.

I don't use 286s because a 386 will run the same stuff.

I've got P1s, but I haven't used them for a few years--again, what they do, a P3 can to faster.

I don't have a dual-core anything, but I don't need one. The best I can get on broadband is 1.5Mbps, so there's no point to faster CPUs. I'm typing this on a Socket 478 system.
 
Chuck(G) said:
Lie long enough and everything you own will be "vintage'.
Click to expand...
This was exactly my point, and it's true. Only exception is hardware that's brand new of course, it has to 'age' first :p
The 286's that are now considered vintage, were brand new on-the-shelf hardware once.
 
Tetrium2 said:
This was exactly my point, and it's true. Only exception is hardware that's brand new of course, it has to 'age' first :p
The 286's that are now considered vintage, were brand new on-the-shelf hardware once.
Click to expand...

Yes, but then what you as an oldster think of as "vintage", nobody even recognizes here.
 
Well, the term "vintage computer" is still relatively new and prone to change as computer history develops.
It's not set in stone (except on the wiki perhaps) and new people will develop new retro computer interests as time goes by.
I can imagine many outside of this forum calling a 486 "vintage".
Or would a 486 here be called "retro"?
Frankly many people even consider an Athlon 64 DDR rig "retro", or atleast "old".
What is the definition of a "retro rig" anyway?
When searching the wiki it opens the "vintage computing" page which is not what many people will have been looking for when googling "retro rig".

I'm not trying to start a discussion here, but I'm confused lol
 
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