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1.2MB drive CANT read 360K
- Thread starter tseng
- Start date
Chuck(G)
25k Member
I assume you mean "Micro Solutions", not "Microstation". Works the same way as a legacy floppy setup--has an FDC, MCU and about 16KB of local memory. Over the parallel port, one can address any FDC register as well as local memory, so no difference, really. What are you using as a driver (name, version)?
krebizfan
Veteran Member
Could you describe your system and what specific 360K disk is causing issues? The 1.2MB Backpack should autodetect the standard DS/DD format but it isn't as flexible as the floppy controller inside the computer.
https://web.archive.org/web/20040608104057/http://www.micro-solutions.com/support/master.asp is the Internet Archive listing of the oldest online troubleshooting documents for the Backpack. Maybe one of these would be relevant? I can't see any that point to issues with 1.2MB drive reading 360K floppies.
https://web.archive.org/web/20040608104057/http://www.micro-solutions.com/support/master.asp is the Internet Archive listing of the oldest online troubleshooting documents for the Backpack. Maybe one of these would be relevant? I can't see any that point to issues with 1.2MB drive reading 360K floppies.
RetroHospital
Experienced Member
I’ve got the exact same problem with the same hardware ( and sorry for necroposting )
Do you use the all metal backpack ?
I’m starting to think the drivers that are around the internet are for the all plastic one .
In the meantime I’ll put the drive ( teac fd55gfr) in a greaseweazle to confirm it’s working ; in the last threads I opened here I was investigating the drive itself as the cause but it’s more and more likely the actual problem is the backpack or the drivers
The drive runs normally with 1.2 Mb disks ( read , format ) and does absolutely nothing with 360 Kb ; it seems to be stuck in hd mode all the time ; especially trying to format a 1.2 floppy in 360K mode will actually kill track zero ( so the drive write junks in track zero ) making it unreadable and then it spits out the « cylinder zero error «
So my plan is now to confirm in a greazeweazlebthe floppy works ; if it does ; to try to be sure what drivers this thing originally came up with ; and then maybe try to debug the hardware . It seems very unlikely to me these things came from the factory unable to read 360k ; especially as the all metal model is the oldest with a copyright 1990 on the controller board ; it would for sure need to be able to read 360 k at that time to be of any use
It would be nice if people would attach their different versions of the backpack driver in this thread
Do you use the all metal backpack ?
I’m starting to think the drivers that are around the internet are for the all plastic one .
In the meantime I’ll put the drive ( teac fd55gfr) in a greaseweazle to confirm it’s working ; in the last threads I opened here I was investigating the drive itself as the cause but it’s more and more likely the actual problem is the backpack or the drivers
The drive runs normally with 1.2 Mb disks ( read , format ) and does absolutely nothing with 360 Kb ; it seems to be stuck in hd mode all the time ; especially trying to format a 1.2 floppy in 360K mode will actually kill track zero ( so the drive write junks in track zero ) making it unreadable and then it spits out the « cylinder zero error «
So my plan is now to confirm in a greazeweazlebthe floppy works ; if it does ; to try to be sure what drivers this thing originally came up with ; and then maybe try to debug the hardware . It seems very unlikely to me these things came from the factory unable to read 360k ; especially as the all metal model is the oldest with a copyright 1990 on the controller board ; it would for sure need to be able to read 360 k at that time to be of any use
It would be nice if people would attach their different versions of the backpack driver in this thread
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krebizfan
Veteran Member
RetroHospital
Experienced Member
Yes I even found pictures on ebay of a NOS unit with the box.
This unit (the one I've got, and probably the one of the OP as well) is called a "microsolutions backpack model 1231" (which is by the way not written on the unit itself)
It's a bit fuzzy WHAT it exactly does but it says on the box (I'm putting this here to save it for next generations)
So it does "something" with 360KB floppies
Let's assume it at the very least reads them. The fact they mention that floppies made with a 1.2MB drive could be problematic suggest the thing writes/formats 360KB as well.
Also the listing came with pictures of the freaking original disks , this thing came with Version 2.11 drivers. So if I can find that, I don't have a driver problem either.
So my mystery remains, why on earth do I have a backpack that doesn't seem to be able to do anything with 360KB floppies, and interestingly : i'm not alone to have this problem. If you look closely in the VCFED forums, I found 3 people with the same drive, all with issues to read specifically 360KB diskettes on that same drive.
I tried multiple known good 360K floppies, multiple PCs, and two versions of the drivers.
The fact it accepts to start a 360KB format, then kills the disk, then complains of a "cylinder 0 error" (which it probably created itself) is interesting. All symptoms point into the direction of the thing simply "staying" in HD mode all the time, both at read or write.
Could it be some component failing somewhere, or the whole internet using the wrong drivers, hard to say. The fatc you cannot use something like IMD (imagedisk) with a parallel port disk also doesn't help pinpointing the problem.
This unit (the one I've got, and probably the one of the OP as well) is called a "microsolutions backpack model 1231" (which is by the way not written on the unit itself)
It's a bit fuzzy WHAT it exactly does but it says on the box (I'm putting this here to save it for next generations)
So it does "something" with 360KB floppies
Let's assume it at the very least reads them. The fact they mention that floppies made with a 1.2MB drive could be problematic suggest the thing writes/formats 360KB as well.Also the listing came with pictures of the freaking original disks , this thing came with Version 2.11 drivers. So if I can find that, I don't have a driver problem either.
So my mystery remains, why on earth do I have a backpack that doesn't seem to be able to do anything with 360KB floppies, and interestingly : i'm not alone to have this problem. If you look closely in the VCFED forums, I found 3 people with the same drive, all with issues to read specifically 360KB diskettes on that same drive.
I tried multiple known good 360K floppies, multiple PCs, and two versions of the drivers.
The fact it accepts to start a 360KB format, then kills the disk, then complains of a "cylinder 0 error" (which it probably created itself) is interesting. All symptoms point into the direction of the thing simply "staying" in HD mode all the time, both at read or write.
Could it be some component failing somewhere, or the whole internet using the wrong drivers, hard to say. The fatc you cannot use something like IMD (imagedisk) with a parallel port disk also doesn't help pinpointing the problem.
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krebizfan
Veteran Member
Opening the enclosure and ensuring it doesn't have one of the very early* high density drives that did not support 360K disks could be prudent. I could see one cable having a broken density select pin but it seems unlikely that multiple drives could have failed in the same way.
Unfortunately, the FTP site which had a lot of versions of the drivers was not archived anywhere.
* I think those drives stopped being made before the first Backpacks were released.
Unfortunately, the FTP site which had a lot of versions of the drivers was not archived anywhere.
* I think those drives stopped being made before the first Backpacks were released.
RetroHospital
Experienced Member
It's a TEAC FD55GFR , I'm not sure this is stock to the unit - but the seller who is the original buyer of the unit back in the day - says it is.
Problem is that these 5.25 backpack are so rare that there is very little info about them, the drivers FTP is down indeed, and 30 years have passed so it's not impossible the unit simply fails in some way.
It's not that I'm in love with the backpack : I realize it's obscure, but beeing a vintage laptop collector, this unit is really a bridge between the PC desktop era and my collection, and I can move it to a variety of units as well, so I really would like this to work as it's supposed to, especially with reading 360KB floppies.
Also it just doesn't make sense a unit would read/write 1.2MB if it was suffering an alignement problem or the like. But really the fact multiple people complain of the exact same thing is triggering my curiosity and make me think we're all missing something simple.
Does anyone have an actual copy of those "version 2.11" driver floppies ?
I mean not sourced from a zip or a cdrom, but sourced from the original floppies (360K or 720K).
Problem is that these 5.25 backpack are so rare that there is very little info about them, the drivers FTP is down indeed, and 30 years have passed so it's not impossible the unit simply fails in some way.
It's not that I'm in love with the backpack : I realize it's obscure, but beeing a vintage laptop collector, this unit is really a bridge between the PC desktop era and my collection, and I can move it to a variety of units as well, so I really would like this to work as it's supposed to, especially with reading 360KB floppies.
Also it just doesn't make sense a unit would read/write 1.2MB if it was suffering an alignement problem or the like. But really the fact multiple people complain of the exact same thing is triggering my curiosity and make me think we're all missing something simple.
Does anyone have an actual copy of those "version 2.11" driver floppies ?
I mean not sourced from a zip or a cdrom, but sourced from the original floppies (360K or 720K).
Chuck(G)
25k Member
RetroHospital
Experienced Member
I really would like to put my hands on a floppy image as I'll allow me to rule out the possibility of this beeing a driver issue.
I find it unlikely, but hey, it would explain the symptoms AND the fact multiple people report the same.
thanks for looking @Chuck(G)
Also, it would be a nice addition to the internets if you could come up with a .IMA or whatever floppy image(s) as this is nowhere to be found. Especially if you can find/create both the 5.25 (not sure if that was a 360K or 1.2MB ?) and 720K images.
If that's not the cause, and once I confirm the integrated FD55GFR works with greaseweazle, then the only possibility left is that something "dies" in the controller, or some connection fails or something, especially as the HD/DD switch is (iirc) a wire of its own on the fdc connector.
I find it unlikely, but hey, it would explain the symptoms AND the fact multiple people report the same.
thanks for looking @Chuck(G)
Also, it would be a nice addition to the internets if you could come up with a .IMA or whatever floppy image(s) as this is nowhere to be found. Especially if you can find/create both the 5.25 (not sure if that was a 360K or 1.2MB ?) and 720K images.
If that's not the cause, and once I confirm the integrated FD55GFR works with greaseweazle, then the only possibility left is that something "dies" in the controller, or some connection fails or something, especially as the HD/DD switch is (iirc) a wire of its own on the fdc connector.
rittwage
Veteran Member
You should not format and try to use 40-tracks on an 80-track drive. If you do, it will often not be compatible with a real 40-track drive. You will regret trying to do this in most cases unless you have a way to completely magnetically erase the disk.
Chuck(G)
25k Member
I can image the floppy as an IMD, but I could find no sign that there were hidden files. For all I know, I might well have already imaged it years ago. I'll have a look.
Plasma
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2005
- Messages
- 2,103
It works just fine as long as you start with a new unformatted disk. Have done it many times...
Chuck(G)
25k Member
Here's your image file. Early enough that it's still single-sided 5.25".
RetroHospital
Experienced Member
Any chance you could find 2.11 ?
Because in the internet only two things are to be found : the v2.10 above (fits on a 180K disk)
This is the one i'm currently using.
And the "floppy drive" driver from the cdrom people can find on minus0° , which fits on a 1.44MB and contains other files which seem to be a windows 95 driver and two setup EXEs.
I'm gonna try this driver by creating my own (smaller) image, removing the 95 specific files
Because in the internet only two things are to be found : the v2.10 above (fits on a 180K disk)
This is the one i'm currently using.
And the "floppy drive" driver from the cdrom people can find on minus0° , which fits on a 1.44MB and contains other files which seem to be a windows 95 driver and two setup EXEs.
I'm gonna try this driver by creating my own (smaller) image, removing the 95 specific files
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RetroHospital
Experienced Member
FYI here is a comparison between the only two drivers for the FLoppy Backpack that I know about,
the 2.10 here (on the left) and the Minus0° cdrom version (on the right)
We can hardly talk about an incremental change
One is nearly double the other , they have don't have a single line in common apart from the header.
I'd be curious to see/put my hands on those "2.11" drivers, supposedly on a 720K floppy (if I trust the picture above).
the 2.10 here (on the left) and the Minus0° cdrom version (on the right)
We can hardly talk about an incremental change
One is nearly double the other , they have don't have a single line in common apart from the header.
I'd be curious to see/put my hands on those "2.11" drivers, supposedly on a 720K floppy (if I trust the picture above).
Chuck(G)
25k Member
Okay, here's the image for a 2.12 (1996) version. Other than an enhanced PRINT.ME, I don't see much difference.
If it doesn't work, write your own driver and post it here. I posted example interface code for the BP years ago.
If it doesn't work, write your own driver and post it here. I posted example interface code for the BP years ago.
RetroHospital
Experienced Member
Believe it or not... I managed to make it work.
First of thanks to everyone who tried to help me, I learned a lot along the way and I'm sure someone will read this topic in the future and benefit from everyone's wisdom.
The solution was inside the PDF of TEAC FD55GFR specs. First of all the Teac inside my Backpack is a FD55GFR 140 U ; specs for this specific revision are nowhere to be found on the internet, same for the jumper settings. You can guess the function of most jumpers by reading docs for the 149U and other FD55 models, but there is no doc about this model and some jumpers are simply unique to this model, and the jumper config (their position on the board) is also unique.
My Backpack unit shipped with jumper D1, DC & FG wired to ON. The PDF doc of the FD55 says that this is the default together with II .
My unit does not have a "II" jumper.
Reading the other FD55GFR 340,440 and 540 specs , it says that for the I/II/IS trio there should always be a jumper selected (in the on position)
On the 55GFR-140 it's not a jumper trio but only a duo: I and IS.
Turns out you need to force the multi speed by adding the "I" jumper in the 140-U. Otherwise I'm not sure what mode it is using, but it seems to run in HD all the time, discarding any info from the floppy or the controller. This is something I tried before but I made an error, I used jumper D1 to go into I, by doing so I changed the ID of the drive (this could have been solved by SETID) so I added a problem trying to solve another one.
Proper quick fix ; I removed the FG jumper and put it in "I". FG puts the chassis ground to the 0V. It's probably not essential, I'll need to put my hands on a small pitch jumper and put it back, but it works for now.
I suppose that somewhere during the life of this device, someone removed the floppy drive out of the Backpack controller, played with it maybe in a PC or a greaseweazel or the likes, and tuned the jumpers for whatever reason, and then maybe put them back to "the defaults" (as per the doc), and leaving "I" not jumpered as it's not a default, and "II" does not exist. He then put the unit back together into a monstrosity that does HD all the time, kills 360K's sector 0, etc
It now works beautifully, reading 1.2M and 360K (obviously!) and also formatting 360K ( format /4 ).
It also means, interestingly, that the backpack controller actually relies on variable speed (300rpm/360rpm) whereas other controllers might read and format 300rpm disks at 360rpm by adjusting the data rate. It seems that is not the way the Backpack controller works.
First of thanks to everyone who tried to help me, I learned a lot along the way and I'm sure someone will read this topic in the future and benefit from everyone's wisdom.
The solution was inside the PDF of TEAC FD55GFR specs. First of all the Teac inside my Backpack is a FD55GFR 140 U ; specs for this specific revision are nowhere to be found on the internet, same for the jumper settings. You can guess the function of most jumpers by reading docs for the 149U and other FD55 models, but there is no doc about this model and some jumpers are simply unique to this model, and the jumper config (their position on the board) is also unique.
My Backpack unit shipped with jumper D1, DC & FG wired to ON. The PDF doc of the FD55 says that this is the default together with II .
My unit does not have a "II" jumper.
Reading the other FD55GFR 340,440 and 540 specs , it says that for the I/II/IS trio there should always be a jumper selected (in the on position)
On the 55GFR-140 it's not a jumper trio but only a duo: I and IS.
Turns out you need to force the multi speed by adding the "I" jumper in the 140-U. Otherwise I'm not sure what mode it is using, but it seems to run in HD all the time, discarding any info from the floppy or the controller. This is something I tried before but I made an error, I used jumper D1 to go into I, by doing so I changed the ID of the drive (this could have been solved by SETID) so I added a problem trying to solve another one.
Proper quick fix ; I removed the FG jumper and put it in "I". FG puts the chassis ground to the 0V. It's probably not essential, I'll need to put my hands on a small pitch jumper and put it back, but it works for now.
I suppose that somewhere during the life of this device, someone removed the floppy drive out of the Backpack controller, played with it maybe in a PC or a greaseweazel or the likes, and tuned the jumpers for whatever reason, and then maybe put them back to "the defaults" (as per the doc), and leaving "I" not jumpered as it's not a default, and "II" does not exist. He then put the unit back together into a monstrosity that does HD all the time, kills 360K's sector 0, etc
It now works beautifully, reading 1.2M and 360K (obviously!) and also formatting 360K ( format /4 ).
It also means, interestingly, that the backpack controller actually relies on variable speed (300rpm/360rpm) whereas other controllers might read and format 300rpm disks at 360rpm by adjusting the data rate. It seems that is not the way the Backpack controller works.
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