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A pair of Pets - Preparing to test after perhaps 40 years unused

No need. The machine will work fine without a few of them for now.

I would just check the /RESET pin on the CPU to rule out constant resets externally to the CPU.

It is then probably ROM, RAM or faulty sockets/decode logic.

Dave

Reset looked messy while it was chirping away, then the chirping stopped and it's staying low.

Unfortunately even power cycle isn't getting me the chirps right now so maybe something else has popped.

I checked other voltages using UA10, getting -5, 5 and 12 as expected. I'll need to pick this up tomorrow but I suppose I'm starting at the timer / reset circuit.
 
Low is bad! It is an active LOW reset. So, if the signal is permanently LOW, it is being held permanently in a reset condition.

Go back to the NE555 timer IC and work your way forwards through the various buffers.

Dave
 
Low is bad! It is an active LOW reset. So, if the signal is permanently LOW, it is being held permanently in a reset condition.

Go back to the NE555 timer IC and work your way forwards through the various buffers.

Dave
UE15 and UE15 to be OK, connected as expected and inverting but the 555 is always high on pin 3.

The 555 has got 5V on pins 4 & 8.

C50, 51, 52 look OK / visually, although perhaps C52 looks a little dark.

I guess something here has to be faulty.

What's more likely ...the 555 or one of the capacitors? I have 555's (TLC555IP) to hand if needed - they are functionally compatible right? I also got some 50V 0.1uF ceramics today.
 
UE15 and UE15 to be OK, connected as expected and inverting but the 555 is always high on pin 3.

The 555 has got 5V on pins 4 & 8.

C50, 51, 52 look OK / visually, although perhaps C52 looks a little dark.

I guess something here has to be faulty.

What's more likely ...the 555 or one of the capacitors? I have 555's (TLC555IP) to hand if needed - they are functionally compatible right? I also got some 50V 0.1uF ceramics today.
I have not got the circuit in front of me, though as I recall, at power on, the trigger pin is transiently low, because of the discharged 0.1uF capacitor on in 2.

The timing capacitor and resistor, typically 1uF and 1Meg are connected to pin 6&7 and determine how long pin 3 stays high after power up.

Since the 1uF is a Tant capacitor, if it was shorted, or leaky, the 555's output on pin 3 would trigger to a high state, but then not fall low later because the threshold voltage would not be reached.

So that 1uF capacitor is more of a suspect than the 555 IC itself, because old Tants notoriouly short out. But this is just probablility, your 555 IC or other parts around the 555, could still be defective.

Generally a 555 IC itself, especially the vintage Signetics NE555N are pretty reliable.

Of course you could check with a scope if the 1uF cap had charged to over the threshold voltage, typically 2/3 the supply voltage, but if you did you have to use a x10 probe with a 10 Meg input resistance. People get fooled checking this with a x1 probe with a 1 Meg input resistance, because that simply loads the voltage to half Vcc because of the 1 Meg charging resistor.
 
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Toss a coin I am afraid.

Heads = tantalum capacitor.
Tails = NE555.

You could measure the voltage on pin 6 and 7 of the NE555. It should be low(ish) if the capacitor is faulty and high(ish) if the NE555 is faulty. As a first guess...

Dave
 
With apologies for falling off the face of the earth, I've got this machine back on my bench again.

(EDIT: I don't think anyone has seen this yet so I'm updating rather than replying to myself...I replaced C50 and I now have the startup chirp again! And just one...not repeating like it was originally. This is better than when I started. I've still no video at all but will move forward with troubleshooting more generally now and post back when I know something.)

Today I have replaced the following with new (and tested) parts for C49, C51, C59 and C95.

I took out the tant C51 to replace then realised the ones I got were only rated for 25V (I'll get some 35V tomorrow) so I've put the original back in - testing with my multimeter while it was out did measure very close to 1 uF.

I also removed the 555, put in a socket and have tested again with both the original and new TLC555IP (which the datasheet explicitly says is a swappable for NE555)

I've observed the following:

  • ~5.1V is reaching all random ICs I tested, including the 555, 6502 and RAM
  • Pin 3 on the 555 is staying HIGH, which above was noted to be a problem.
  • On powerup, C51 output gradually rises (around 2-3 seconds) to ~4.7v
  • I've checked continuity from each 555 pin the next component it connects to on the schematics.

Voltages on the 555:
1: 0 (expected)
2: 0...and not steady viewed on scope, I think it's just noise
3: 4.6v (high, noted to be issue)
4: 5.1v
5: 3.45v
6: 4.6v
7: 4.6v
8: 5.1v


Given the trigger on 2 is never rising, I'll replace C50 given it's directly attached and still the original..maybe it's blown too just not showing it visibly.
 
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Since you have put the 555 in a socket, remove the 555 and measure the voltage on pin 2 of the socket.

You will require a high impedance voltmeter, as there is a 1M resistor (R24) to +5V.

If pin 2 is not HIGH, measure both sides of R24 relative to 0V. Both sides of the resistor should be +5V.

Dave
 
Most of the time, it's the timing cap - although I have had one where the 1M resistor went open... It got a 470K put in instead - somewhere there's a PET that boots REALLY quickly...

If the board is really gunky - there can be enough leakage to stop it working as well...
 
Since you have put the 555 in a socket, remove the 555 and measure the voltage on pin 2 of the socket.

You will require a high impedance voltmeter, as there is a 1M resistor (R24) to +5V.

If pin 2 is not HIGH, measure both sides of R24 relative to 0V. Both sides of the resistor should be +5V.

Dave

Most of the time, it's the timing cap

Thanks for the replies - I think the reset circuit is OK now since I replaced C50. It's reliably chirping on power up now.

I've packed up for the day but after a few hours of probing, including seeing what looks like activity on the address bus and clock on 6502 I started looking at video out, noting that my CRT itself seems to be totally dead.

On J7, I observed what seem as reasonable timings (49.9913 Hz and 19.9965 KHz) so started looking for the actual video signal. I learned that the syns and video are exposed on the user port, where I saw what seemed like reasonable signals. Then something happened....while probing pin 2 (video) on the user port another of the 0.1 uF caps burned up, C57.

As far as I can tell this wouldn't be directly related to where I was probing. Surely the 5.1V on the board isn't enough for them all to keep burning up? Could I have caused it to happen?
 
Looks like some sign of water damage on the wires on the caps in one photo - maybe some connection with them failing, the supply is current limited, but they can certainly get very hot if they draw even 0.2A and don't trip the current limiting...

Don't over think it, replace them if they fail and look for signs of corrosion on others, if you happen to have a thermal camera, get some sample images - but not at all critical.

From personal experience, anything that has not been used in decades can be expected to gain new faults for some hours/days of testing - but the new fault rate will slow down rapidly, depending on how they have been stored.
 
C57 is just a 5V supply decoupling capacitor.

It is unlikely you killed it!

I suspect it just committed suicide with age...

Is this device a ceramic or glass construction?

Dave
 
If the metal wires have corroded to the glass envelope, that will physically damage the capacitor which can cause it to die..

Dave
 
Looks like some sign of water damage on the wires on the caps in one photo

Lots of these specific caps have green legs (some more so than any in my photos so far) although I think these were reasonably well stored - I know where they were even when not in use before given to me.

It's really only these caps too, no matter where they are across the board.

If the metal wires have corroded to the glass envelope, that will physically damage the capacitor which can cause it to die..

If that's the case, I might need a few more spares, especially given I've got a second machine to do after I learn enough from this one.

I'll swap this one out now, but any suggestions for my next step? Are the reliable and single chirps a sign that the machine is really starting and should I turn my attention to video? If so, opinions re getting the CRT going 1st or rigging something modern?
 
C57 replaced & machine has been on for about 3 minutes now without any more burning.

It was on for various longer period across some hours yesterday before this last one went so too early to know if more are going to go.

I'll give it 10 mins then turn off and go about my day and wait to see what suggestions come.

I appreciate the interest, and again sorry for the 5 month gap in activity.
 
>>> I appreciate the interest, and again sorry for the 5 month gap in activity.

Absolutely no problem.

Chirping is good. Next step be video!

If, in the meantime, another capacitor goes - just replace it and carry on...

Dave
 
Chirping is good. Next step be video!

I popped the back off the CRT - it is absolutely filthy, not just dusty. I'll have to clean it before even thinking about troubleshooting so would rather do that when I know the input is working.

I've got a screen that's been surprisingly good with odd frequencies in the past (BBC, Amstrad and c128 RGBi have all worked with simple circuits I've found online as well as direct Amiga 15Khz) so maybe it will come good again for the PET. I've got a GBS too. Any recommendations for something I can make on a breadboard outputting to "VGA"?
 
Remind me, do you have an oscilloscope? If so, you don't even need a working monitor...

The PET signals are not as "nice" as other machines. For example, they are "DRIVE" signals and not "SYNC" signals, so there are some timing "bodges" required.

There is a simple circuit to convert the PET into a composite signal, but you may be better off buying one of the HDMI converters. There is a current thread describing this...

See: https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?t...-text-wobbling-on-screen.1247753/post-1379523

Dave
 
Hi - yes, got an oscilliscope.

I found that composite design and figured I’d make that if there wasn’t a better & easier suggestion. I’ve got the components to hand so will do that tomorrow.

I’ll check that link too but unless it’s super cheap and available (and useful for other things) I’ll probably just stick with the DIY given it’s only for this troubleshooting stage.

any tips on what to look for now with the scope?
 
First of all, check the HDRIVE and VDRIVE signals.

VDRIVE should be either 50 Hz or 60 Hz (depending upon the configuration of the EDIT ROM programming). The EDIT ROM part number will tell us...

HDRIVE should be something between 15 kHz and 20 kHz. I can't remember exactly what at the moment without looking it up.

Then check the VIDEO signal to see what you have - either stuck HI or LO, or activity.

Dave
 
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