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AGP compatibility question

I had that machine in near continuous service from 2002ish to 2012. It was maxed out to dual PIII-S 1400s in 2007 and upgraded to 2 GB of RAM. It saw limited use after 2012 when I was able to get other secondary machines that were faster than it was. I think I retired it completely by 2015, but it sits in the same place on the same desk it has been on since 2002.

I currently have three other dual socket boards, but that one will always be special.
 
Don't think that's fair to say. I don't believe there are many titles that are programmed with pure Windows practice that don't work on 2K. It is those that carry something from the DOS age they do.
I'd like to stick those out of the discussion, because that's a bit into NT vs classic win32 offtopic.
Is one potential source of problems on NT/2K/XP vs. 9x the fact that the former has filesystem permissions, preventing software from writing settings into its own install directory, the Windows directory, the root of the hard drive, etc.? I seem to recall this being an issue with older software running on XP if you ran under an account without administrator permissions, although of course most people just ran under accounts with administrator permissions all the time, because until Vista came along, it wasn't really convenient to do otherwise (yes, everyone hated UAC, but it was nicer than having to explicitly "Run as Administrator" all the time).
 
Except that in 2k the permissions are set to 'yes' by default. Thats what I love so much about 2k. You CAN configure it to be the most secure OS on the planet, but its default settings make it more like the fun uncle of operating systems.
 
The only way you'd have a secure Windows 2000 system is to install it on a machine not connected to the internet and bury it a mile down in an old mine full of radiation, zombieitis and super syphilis so nobody would venture there.

Windows 2000 has plenty of critical vulnerabilities that were never patched, and if you could override the boot environment, you could just walk right in the front door with offline NT password changer.
 
The only way you'd have a secure Windows 2000 system is to install it on a machine not connected to the internet and bury it a mile down in an old mine full of radiation, zombieitis and super syphilis so nobody would venture there.

Windows 2000 has plenty of critical vulnerabilities that were never patched, and if you could override the boot environment, you could just walk right in the front door with offline NT password changer.

Has nothing to do with 2K itself.
Of course you can reset the admin password if you have physical access and the drive is not encrypted (and the machine is not AD-bound).

Put your 98SE permanently online with public IP address on the interface and see what happens...

Is one potential source of problems on NT/2K/XP vs. 9x the fact that the former has filesystem permissions, preventing software from writing settings into its own install directory, the Windows directory, the root of the hard drive, etc.? I seem to recall this being an issue with older software running on XP if you ran under an account without administrator permissions, although of course most people just ran under accounts with administrator permissions all the time, because until Vista came along, it wasn't really convenient to do otherwise (yes, everyone hated UAC, but it was nicer than having to explicitly "Run as Administrator" all the time).

Except that in 2k the permissions are set to 'yes' by default. Thats what I love so much about 2k. You CAN configure it to be the most secure OS on the planet, but its default settings make it more like the fun uncle of operating systems.

Look, classic Windows brought bad programming practice that created bad user practices. Under no consideration should you have absolute access in a multiuser system.
Classic Windows way was a dying dinosaur even back then.

The bigger problem were people saying, oh, user segmentation is crap, FS permissions are crap, let's just run everything as Admin.
Microsoft literally saved the day by imposing UAC.

In like mid 2010s I stumbled upon a open source project for *nix that had "run install script with sudo" as installation procedure, although under no circumstances should an user application ask for root just to copy and configure itself. Users were perfectly fine with it, as it was a desktop tool used in desktop distros. Until the author made a single character typo in the script - instead of "rm -rf /tmp/$mydir" he did "rm -rf / tmp/$mydir" effectively deleting the root filesystem of his users.

So yeah, you cannot go convenience over security even in the most dumbed down "user friendly" version of Linux - same applies for Windows NT.

Personally I've always hated the mess classic Windows makes out of the filesystem, as opposed to perfect order on something like BSD. NT has fixed that a bit.
MS gives you a centralized configuration database which is not friendly to easy offline inspection or repair, the Registry, it's a BDB and you need tools to manage it. On the other hand, they do not impose any rules on where and how the user application holds its configuration. So it might be in non-human-readable Registry, but it might be anywhere else too, including an INI file in the C:\ root if they wish. Now that's pure bullshit.

Microsoft made a grave mistake not introducing an user directory in Windows 95. Especially because it was able to work in multiuser networks from the get go.
 
I know that today 98SE is cherished on the Internet, maybe most of you guys had top brand components.
Windows 98 SE is simply the best (final-ish) version of the Windows 9x line. It had been debugged a lot, so it was more stable than Windows 98 and ME. It still ran well on older machines (given some additional RAM), and still supported older drivers. On newer machines, it provided a far better out-of-the-box experience than Windows 95. It also inherited the excellent compatibility with older software, both Windows 95 as well as DOS/Windows 3.x.

There is very little not to like. Of course both drivers and regular software would often happily stomp on the OS, corrupting parts of it, but that's true for the whole DOS-based line of systems. It did put a heavier load on the system, causing marginal systems to fail (but so did NT, if not more - with worse driver support).

Put your 98SE permanently online with public IP address on the interface and see what happens...
Not much. Internet-spread malware wasn't as rampant as in the XP era yet. Modern development tooling dropped support years ago, so most malware won't run. Also, network traffic is universally encrypted now, and the HTTPS support in Windows 98 SE is too old to even connect to most servers (the root certificates have expired as well). The current state isn't too much better than Windows 3.1x - broken, but nobody cares.

In like mid 2010s I stumbled upon a open source project for *nix that had "run install script with sudo" as installation procedure, although under no circumstances should an user application ask for root just to copy and configure itself.
Admin permissions are necessary for any system-wide software installations, on any modern system. Software not packaged for your particular (or a similar) distribution will require you to run some script (usually) as root to install itself. Note packages are able to do the same, except that the root permission is inherited through the package manager rather than by asking the user directly.

Until the author made a single character typo in the script - instead of "rm -rf /tmp/$mydir" he did "rm -rf / tmp/$mydir" effectively deleting the root filesystem of his users.
Do you refer to nvidia, which did that in its uninstallation procedure (called from its official package)?

Microsoft made a grave mistake not introducing an user directory in Windows 95.
Well, networked installations did have one. Running the complete Windows installation from a network server was well-supported in Windows for Workgroups, but barely documented in Windows 95 and dropped thereafter.

The Windows 9x line had to handle much more restricted hardware than NT. A lot of the issues were inherited from DOS, and that was a trade-off Microsoft decided to take. If you did not need all the compatibility then, well, Windows NT did exist. It just came at a greater cost and - by design - less compatibility with existing stuff.
 
Windows 98 SE is simply the best (final-ish) version of the Windows 9x line. It had been debugged a lot, so it was more stable than Windows 98 and ME. It still ran well on older machines (given some additional RAM), and still supported older drivers. On newer machines, it provided a far better out-of-the-box experience than Windows 95. It also inherited the excellent compatibility with older software, both Windows 95 as well as DOS/Windows 3.x.

I had that replied in the context of 2000 (SP4) being insecure while the comparison wasn't against latest OpenBSD, it was against 98 (SE).
Everyone used those flaky pre-SP4 Win2K in enterprise/server domain instead of going for that Win98. I know it's mixing apples and oranges, but so is claiming that security of W2K is flawed compared to Win98.

Admin permissions are necessary for any system-wide software installations, on any modern system. Software not packaged for your particular (or a similar) distribution will require you to run some script (usually) as root to install itself. Note packages are able to do the same, except that the root permission is inherited through the package manager rather than by asking the user directly.

Yeah but that's not what I was trying to point out - Microsoft had to do something in between. Win98SE apps can still behave like entire computer is theirs. But MS knew they'll be merging the OS lines, and did nothing to impose user workflow creating appropriate mindset.
In 2K desktop usage this was totally neglected, the default desktop user is Administrator. I believe it took Vista to happen to impose a default limited user and impose escalation control on the windowstation.

Do you refer to nvidia, which did that in its uninstallation procedure (called from its official package)?

Nope, some minor thing (compared to nvidia driver), and to tie in to your reply about scripts above, this software package did not require a system wide install, and it's highly incommon to have system wide installation scripts. Either you're using a package manager or a build system.
Installing binaries pulled from internet via sudoed script is really an antipattern...the maintainer got a ton of flak for it.

The Windows 9x line had to handle much more restricted hardware than NT. A lot of the issues were inherited from DOS, and that was a trade-off Microsoft decided to take. If you did not need all the compatibility then, well, Windows NT did exist. It just came at a greater cost and - by design - less compatibility with existing stuff.

Sure, but that means 9x is measured how well it did under those circumstances.
In my subjective case, 98SE wasn't stable, it wasn't too bad or unstable like my first installations of Win95 (A), but it wasn't rock solid, opposed to Win2K installation. On 2K I had 0 security concerns as well, because an NT system can be properly hardened as far as network side is concerned, and that usually doesn't interfere with consumer applications at all.
 
I had almost this exact same conversation 2-3 times a month on the 2cpu.com forums back in the early 2000s(way back when continuing to use 95a as a daily driver was actually a viable option). I really enjoy that over 2 decades later we're still having the same debate.


Anyway, for me it comes down to this: 98SE out of the box is configured exactly the way I want it to be. I don't have to change ANYTHING. When I do a fresh 10 install, I have to do it offline so it lets me make a local user account, wait an hour while it does *something* that consumes 100% of the disk I/O. Wait 4 more hours for windows updates. THEN spend 2 hours changing settings, tweaking the registry & group policies, install 3rd party software to add missing functionality, and apply multile straight-up HACKS before the operating system reaches a point at which I can merely tolerate using it.

Using Windows XP always felt like dancing a waltz. Using Windows 10 feels like a boxing match. Using Windows 11 is like a boxing match, except I'm Glass Joe and its Mike Tyson.
 
Using Windows 11 is like a boxing match, except I'm Glass Joe and its Mike Tyson.
I'm interested in why you would say that. Do you have apps that you can't install or don't run right? Maybe problems with your email? Or is it just trendy to bash W11 these days. What exactly doesn't run right for you?
 
We've had this discussion before and the answer is still the terrible user interface. Since I need a good laugh today, I'll lean back and watch you try to defend it. Then laugh even harder when I remember that you're serious.
 
We've had this discussion before and the answer is still the terrible user interface. Since I need a good laugh today, I'll lean back and watch you try to defend it. Then laugh even harder when I remember that you're serious.
I've never defended it and I don't really wouldn't give a rodent's derriere one way or another. What amusing is your retort to about the interface which can be customized 3 ways to hades. Mine looks and runs just like W7. There's nothing there to defend so just go ahead and have a laugh or two on me.
 
your retort to about the interface which can be customized 3 ways to hades.
I have to spend 4 hours configuring and straight up breaking windows ten to get it to a level I describe as "barely tolerable". You think starting with a UI thats orders of magnitude worse will help with that problem. Do you still wonder why you and I don't see eye to eye?
 
I have to spend 4 hours configuring and straight up breaking windows ten to get it to a level I describe as "barely tolerable". You think starting with a UI thats orders of magnitude worse will help with that problem. Do you still wonder why you and I don't see eye to eye?
Have you tried the W7 start menu which is included with W11 (Reg hack)? From there there's a host of customizations like File Explorer for one.
 
The main thing I remember about Windows 98's UI is how after boot you'd get the pointer on the desktop and think it was okay to start clicking on desktop icons or the Start menu but, oh, no, in actuality it would still be thrashing away like a wounded carp in the background and selectively ignore your clicks for another minute, leading you to stupid situations like entering into hand-to-hand combat with the Start menu popping open and shut, or getting frustrated and double-clicking on an icon half a dozen times and then, suddenly, a random amount of time later, getting a half dozen copies of that same program opening. So... yeah, not really following how this was so great, but whatever.

(Although, I guess it must be said, I've had that second thing happen on the only Windows 10 box I have in the house that has a spinning hard disk instead of a flash drive, so I guess some things never change.)
 
I haven't been a Windows fan since they started phoning home, made XP a no go for me. I did use it for a while but found every way of breaking it and I think Defender came out towards the end, screw that.

Windows 2000 was better, not as intrusive. You had to boot into Linux to delete system files you didn't want though, as they put that "feature" in where they would just pop back up after deletion.

I have a Windows 98SE/Me hybrid machine I use to play old games, it does USB mass storage and some other stuff you couldn't do back then. My main complaint about 98 is that giant software suites will fight each other for system files, breaking each other constantly. Sometimes you can install in a certain order and get it to work... I remember VB6 Pro, Office 2000, and AutoCAD not liking each other at all. Sometimes software installation would cause file system errors to the extent that Windows wouldn't start at all, constantly having to use the system restore... Probably the best feature they could add lol.
 
Has nothing to do with 2K itself.
Of course you can reset the admin password if you have physical access and the drive is not encrypted (and the machine is not AD-bound).

Put your 98SE permanently online with public IP address on the interface and see what happens....

What makes you think putting Windows 2000 directly online in the same way as 98SE would be any less dangerous? No version of Windows is robust enough to be online and directly exposed to the internet, even Windows 10/11.
 
What makes you think putting Windows 2000 directly online in the same way as 98SE would be any less dangerous? No version of Windows is robust enough to be online and directly exposed to the internet, even Windows 10/11.

Really, so when Microsoft sells a server OS they tell you put it behind NAT or else warranty is void?

Microsoft saw the largest gain of 8.7 million sites this month, with smaller gains of 211,862 domains (+3.03%) and 1,003 computers (+0.08%). Microsoft now accounts for 3.12% of sites (+0.79pp) and 2.82% of domains (+0.24pp) seen by Netcraft. (June 2023)

Microsoft ran hotmail on FreeBSD up until Windows 2008, afterwards it ran on Windows, and before it didn't not run on Windows because they were insecure, it's just the front proxies that were on BSD since the NT times (when NT wasn't up to the task yet).
It was common since the mid 00s to expose management, there were/are a lot of currently open RDP ports around, and it was common to expose Exchange webmail and standard email ports out. Just take a look at the global port scan picture, there are a lot of Microsoft services, and they run on Windows. What about IPSEC ports for VPN into Microsoft-based organizations, those are exposed Windows server ports also?

Besides take a look at the CVE database for W2K, there is only few W2K exclusive vulnerabilities there. Most span through several Windows versions because they're on the service not on the kernel.

And to answer your question directly, a local hospital signed a maintenance contract with my company in mid-late 00s, and when we came in we witnessed several dozen of internet exposed W2K boxes. What happened here is that in mid 90s, before the hospital had any IT contract, the country's national network research agency, that holded IP blocks, assigned entire I can't remember how big range to the hospital. In another cycle of investment in late 90s, the hospital got W2K PCs from the Ministry of Health. Then in the early 00s ministry ordered the application software for hospitals from Ericsson so hospitals had to boot up all the IT gear and infra they received, but there was no specialized IT company to consult this, "somebody" was just doing it. When we came in, the nurses were telling us PCs are full of crap and stop working once a month but their IT guy can reinstall them during the break...which is weird because the break doesn't last 3 hours. The PC's account was non-admin and the system had numerous stuff disabled. And the hospital personell was using those computers for every piece of crap, they were full of USB installed malware through codec packs and whatnot. The reinstall guy just deleted and recreated the user profiles in 10 minutes per PC.

Anyways, this Microsoft "non network" of theirs was replaced with a normal Microsoft network, with a domain server, with PCs behind NAT and with several services being exposed through public IPs - through a Windows version robust enought to be directly exposed to the internet.
 
wordsalad

Funny how you keep moving the goal post around when you get called out on your nonsense. It's almost like you're being a Microsoft apologist or something.

The correct answer is "Windows 2000 will totally get owned when exposed directly to the internet, in less than 30 minutes."

And if you as a company are exposing modern Windows servers to the internet, ESPECIALLY in a medical field, I'm not sure why you still even have a job. No version of Windows is secure enough to expose to the internet under any configuration. This is why there are firewalls and network appliances that go in front of network servers that are hardened to keep out threats. Microsoft has virtually zero trust when it comes to security anything. Zero day and critical security vulnerabilities are discovered several times a month for Microsoft software.

I used to work IT for a hospital. We had firewalls on top of firewalls and VLANs and network segmentation to isolate all of the critically important stuff. We had only a tiny number of things that were internet facing, and those were carefully configured and monitored for nefarious activity, which we had to constantly play whack-a-mole with threat actors trying to get in.
 
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