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Creeping Subversion of VCF

M

Micom 2000

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2004
Messages
1,284
Location
Manitoba North of 50 degrees Latitude
This forum has achieved a certain popularity among vintage computer users. Lately there have been more and more posts about Pentiums, newest graphic cards, and various other subjects that have no relation to Vintage computers. And many are not in the off-topic section. I'm sure Evan Koblenz and others would agree with me.

There are a multitude of forums which discuss these topics and I feel it is time to put some sort of limitations on posting. I think the 10 year limit is fair, altho discussions on unspecial 486's, may grate a bit. I think members and moderators have been very self-indulgent on this, altho it could lead to the end of VCF as we know it. I know I left the Classiccmp mail-list because of the ever-increasing bias against MDDOS computers and it's DEC and mini focus (not to mention the 100-plus postings a day).

Among several others I advocated splitting the list into 2 sections, one on Minis and one on personal computers. I left when it's unwieldiness and lack of interest to me became unsupportable. Overall I have been happy with the smaller size, and BBS-type camaderie of this forum but if it is to continue there has to be some rules.

I don't mind newbys asking about how to boot a C64 or how to navigate the intricasies of MSDOS or CP/M but this should not be other than what this forum's name implies.

Unfortunately many younger users consider the P-1 vintage and the 486 vintage. It should be our duty to educate them and show the origins of the technology. Not to join in the marketing ploys of the computer manufacturers. Many of who's "breakthrus" were old hat 20 years ago.

Lawrence
 
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Micom 2000 said:
This forum has achieved a certain popularity among vintage computer users. Lately there have been more and more posts about Pentiums, newest graphic cards, and various other subjects that have no relation to Vintage computers. And many are not in the off-topic section. I'm sure Evan Koblenz and others would agree with me.

There are a multitude of forums which discuss these topics and I feel it is time to put some sort of limitations on posting. I think the 10 year limit is fair, altho discussions on unspecial 486's, may grate a bit. I think members and moderators have been very self-indulgent on this, altho it could lead to the end of VCF as we know it. I know I left the Classiccmp mail-list because of the ever-increasing bias against MDDOS computers and it's DEC and mini focus (not to mention the 100-plus postings a day).

Among several others I advocated splitting the list into 2 sections, one on Minis and one on personal computers. I left when it's unwieldiness and lack of interest to me became unsupportable. Overall I have been happy with the smaller size, and BBS-type camaderie of this forum but if it is to continue there has to be some rules.

I don't mind newbys asking about how to boot a C64 or how to navigate the intricasies of MSDOS or CP/M but this should not be other than what this forum's name implies.

Unfortunately many younger users consider the P-1 vintage and the 486 vintage. It should be our duty to educate them and show the origins of the technology. Not to join in the marketing ploys of the computer manufacturers. Many of who's "breakthrus" were old hat 20 years ago.

Lawrence
Click to expand...

Statistically, in the past 24 hours, we have had 85 new posts <patting self (& others) on back>, of which only a handfull have been truly off-topic, and even those few have been appropriately posted (I believe that 'Off-Topic Free-For-All' means exactly that; anything and everything goes). Given the 'normal' degree of topic-drift in forums such as these, that ain't a bad average.
As a Moderator, I have been accused in the past of being too heavy-handed in deleting 'questionable' posts, so that lately, I've been laying-off, in lieu of opinions by vlad and Erik. Of course, the very most blatant of spam is immediately banished, but in borderline matters, it's the consensus, and even, ultimately, the pageowner's decision that matters the most. Between myself and vlad, our role is to take some of the workload off from Erik, not to be the harbingers of what is 'vintage' and what is not, but when we are unsure of the relevancy of a post, then the final cut still falls upon Erik. When he decides that a moderately off-topic post is allowable (sometimes involving only a warning to the poster), then the rest of the members should be in agreement with that decision.
After all, it's Erik's site, and if a post makes it past vlad and myself, and is still allowed by Erik, then we really have no business questioning the authority that has allowed it to remain.

--T
 
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I have to agree with Micom, I too am annoyed from posts pertaining to >1995 computers in the vintage sections. Although there isn't much of this going on. However the retarded amount of spam lately annoys me, like the video card thing in the general off topic section. I have tried making threads pertaining to vintage stuff, but only the same handfull of vintage computer devotees respond. The "newbs"(using lightly because I just signed up) like to make threads and respond to posts about 486's and pentium 1's, which is cool when it is done properly(ex. if they wrote "I know it isn't old, but I would appreciate some input) but these people are using terrible non legible writing. I cannot stand a post with more than a 3:10 error to word ratio. I never had a problem with non-spam in the off topic sections, in fact, I start a lot of those silly threads there, but I never start them off topic. There is only one true solution, more moderation, start deleting anything not pertaining to vintage computers, if they aren't in off topic however. BTW, banning members who refuse to try and write legibly might help.
I left old-computer's forums because nobody really posted about vintage stuff, just mess like "is my pentium 1 rare vintage computer worth a lot of money) Also, I wish every post asking how much something is worth would be deleted.
 
Which posts do you find objectionable? All it takes is a complaint, either publicly, or in a pm to a moderator, and those posters will be put on our 'watch-list' at the very least.
A big problem is that many of the off-topic posts are made by long-time members of these forums, who have contributed much relevant info over the years. I would not like the idea of 'stifling' those posters, even if they are clearly off-topic from time to time (myself included, mea culpa, mea culpa).
One characteristic that I've observed over the years, is the desire/ability/perhaps even compulsion of vintage computer collectors to share thier knowledge with others (this certainly applies to me).
When someone posts an off-topic question about a newer computer, we can't help but reply, in the interest of disseminating our knowledge and in our desire to help freely any and all who have a need. These replies are just a natural side-effect of the psychological drive that compels us to collect and learn about the old tech in the first place.
I'd like to think that I'd be among the last to punish the reply-er for thier desire to help, even when the topic strays to advice on non-vintage subjects.


--T
 
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The funny thing you mention about computers being within the 10 year band, also include Pentiums - so yes, early Pentium can be discussed. The first Pentium CPUs were made around 1993 and in 1995/6 I was using them at schools - these were of course Pentium 60Mhz & 75Mhz processors. However I believe the earliest Pentium chips were running at 50Mhz!

As for what should be vintage & what shouldn't be I'd be cutting it off on a 486 running any faster than 25Mhz, cause those later 486 processors have a bit of kick to them. It's funny though cause when you look at the other end of the scale to the 8bit based computers the last ones (I've know of) been produced was around 1994 & might of even have been in production for a couple of year - depending on their success.

But at least a 386 is a nice vintage sort of processor!

As for posts relevent to newer machines, I personally don't mind seeing those in the "Off Topic - General" which is free for all discussions, cause that's what it is! If someone has a problem with their new computer & thinks a bunch of Vintage owning computer users will be able to solve this problem, then that's their decision!

----

As for the posts which are objectional, some of mine might be a tad shady, though I try to make them sound friendly & voluntary - if people don't like it - don't contribute, it's not going to worry me one bit if people ignore topics. I like to be open - so I feel if I'm open, others will be open as well. What suprises me are topics about political views agendas - other forums in particular don't like you spreading these kinds of messages even if their just links to this forum (which does that) - as a result moderators had removed posts like those & obviously discuss these issues (amonst themselves) to determine the proper action - and came to the conclusion that Political discussions shouldn't be allowed (even if I'm trying to be friendly & open about it!).

CP/M User.
 
Terry Yager wrote:

> We do have a forum which is dedicated to 'Political
> Discussions'...

Sorry I didn't mean to say I'm against political discussions -
I think it's a terrific idea, however other forums are quite
sensetive about discussions relevant to this matter.

Obviously matters of these sort are of no concern to Erik -
until maybe some day someone makes a complaints about it -
though the Political Discussions would have to be really fired
up if that was going to happen.

CP/M User.
 
Fortunately, members here haven't proven to be terribly politically inclined. The 'Political' discussion is less active than some, and politics has been refrained from (more or less) in the other forums.

--T
 
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I suppose this is a little bit my fault for defending the guy the PIII machine. And I have done things like that in the past and I apologize for this. I try to keep things more or less 80486 class or older. However I do accept resposibility for this and admit that I have been part of the problem. With all of the research and work I do being super modern and such, I sometimes forget to push that aside when I come here. I AM NOT useing that as an excuse though. I'll try to do better when it comes to moderation. You all know my contact information, it's in my profile. If anything happens or you object to anything, feel free to contact me. I won't be mad or anything, just fire off a PM and say something.

I know given my past history of the "flare up" is sill probably still all in your memories. Alot has happened in my life since then and I swear to each and every single one of you that something like that will never happen again. Anyone here should never have a problem saying anything to me. I'm not proud of what happened, and I can't apologize enough to you all for that.

Ok with all that out of the way, if anyone ever does need to contatct me, the best ways are though MSN and e-mail. Both use my Gmail address which is the MSN name in my profile. I do occationally use Gmail as well.

Sorry all!

-V
 
Terry Yager wrote:

> Fortunately, members here haven't proven to be
> terribly politically inclined. The 'Political'
> discussion is less active than some, and politics
> has been refrained from (moore or less) in the other
> forums.

As well as religion. I was going to mention about something
which was on the news the other day - but stepped back since
it's questions which more or less go back to the Bible are
seemed inapproriate.

CP/M User.
 
The only issue I can find with political and religious conversation, is it can actually change the way one person percieves another. I personally think political/religious conversation degrades a forum's appeal(no offense VC)
Unlegible posts can degrade a forum as well, but VC doesn't really have an issue with that. Spam definitly can degrade a forum's appeal. Most people who goto forums(from experience) dont want to argue about politics/religion(they just get dragged in, because lets face it, everyone thinks they are right), but rather the subject the forum is supposed to project. Just a little insight from someone who has ran at least 9 different forums(currently 2).
 
vlad wrote:

> I suppose this is a little bit my fault for defending
> the guy the PIII machine. And I have done things like
> that in the past and I apologize for this. I try to
> keep things more or less 80486 class or older.

That's okay as long it's in the General - Off Topic discussion
(now I sound like a mod! ;-)

Guess you could even Rant about them too - not sure if anybody
has ranted about any Vintage computers - I'd imagine they
wouldn't be too popular if they did!

What gets me though about those new machines is if people want
to use Vintage Software on them. For instance there's no
reason why a Pentium III could run DOS, CP/M-86, OS/2 - v1,2,3
(Warp) or Windows 3.x, etc.

Occasionally I had a look at comp.os.cpm usenet group (through
Google) & notice that people are using modern system in
conjunction with CP/M-86 & that more people are moving into
that becuase that's all they can get perhaps - like take away
eBay & people who use it & finding Vintage Computers is much
harder now than 10 years ago - many C64s sold off and even
Amstrads, if you look at things like the Trading Post - many
systems there are IBM based!
Also too, Programmers like myself have contributed software to
this system - so is that relevant here?
So there's a fine line when it comes to hardware & software -
you could be some guy trying to get CP/M-86 onto your 500Gb
Hard Disk, CP/M-86 is vintage, but that HD certainally ain't.
Personally though I think those are truely legimate
discussions here, because the intent is to use something which
is Vintage. Personally though, I use a legimate Vintage
Computer for my Vintage software, cause that seems to work
best, but as I said - Vintage computers are becomming harder
to get - unless you go through eBay.

But at the end of the day - it's upto the moderators & owner
to decide what's right & wrong.

CP/M User.
 
CP/M User said:
But at the end of the day - it's upto the moderators & owner
to decide what's right & wrong.

CP/M User.
Click to expand...


Everyone has the right to voice their opinon on weather or not something should be deleted. With vB, posts that are deleted by me or Terry are not gone forever right off like they were in phpBB. They can be brought back if necessary.

-V
 
I was wondering when this would come up! :)

It used to be a once a year thing on the ccTalk list but hasn't been in a while. . .

In any case, I'm not a strict "10-year" guy myself. I consider "vintage" to be anything you think is cool that isn't current or close to it.

Should a P-II or P-III system be vintage? Probably not, but if it's got something cool about it then maybe it is. Except for the originals I don't consider much PC or Mac to be vintage, but your mileage may vary.

I usually throw out things like the BeBox and NeXT systems as examples of vintage gear that was vintage before it hit 10 years even though that's kinda moot now. ;)

I will say this, though. These forums are ours and as such we should all have a say in what they are about. With that in mind there is a neat little icon in the upper right of every post here. It looks like (
report.gif
) and is used to "report" posts. You can use it to notify me or the mods of a post you deem unworthy of these boards.

Keep in mind, though, that I purposely created the various OT areas specifically to catch the inevitable off-topic wanderings of our members. I don't expect them to get used as much as the main areas, but if someone gets a wild hair then it's nice to give them a place to go where they can share that with the rest of their VC comrades.

Folks that find this site on Google and ask which Asus board will overclock best with their 6800GT should be politely informed that they've come to the wrong place. I don't mind moving their posts to OT, though, in case someone here might have a suggestion.

Anyway, I've rambled a bit. I do appreciate the input and hope we get some more on this topic.
 
My point on this: is the VC forums supposed to be a community, or a strict information-sharing forum? If it is a community, the off-topic posts in the off-topic section have their place (and I'm a member of other forums with much younger members where off-topic is maybe 50% of the total posts without anyone complaining).

If it is only about sharing information about old computers in a very formal way, then we can start moderating and deleting posts that has no useful information. It will make the forums a much more dull place to be, and for many brands of computers, there are specific forums, newsgroups and mailing lists elsewhere which may quicker and better give the correct answers. I'm not sure if there is one type of vintage computers or systems that "we" as a group have the ultimate competence of everyone on the Internet.

Perhaps a Pentium system isn't vintage by today, but when will it be? Will it ever be, or is that an era of computing which is left for another forum to cover in the future? In my point of view, any system that is so old or odd that you can't buy spare parts in a regular (computer) store is obsolete, or "vintage" if you prefer. Take a typical Pentium 133. Apart from the obsolete ISA slots, it has some PCI slots that still are somewhat supported, at least with network and sound cards - finding an unused PCI graphics card today is a moot point. Memory usually were 72 pin SIMMs, which are outdated and at best can be found in a clearance sale. IDE disks, today known as PATA, still are available, but many times larger than the chipset or BIOS can address. Floppy drives? If you're lucky. CD-ROMs? Probably the most compatible item. Case and AT style power supply? Not sold anymore. I didn't even mention motherboards and CPUs, since those are the basis that makes a Pentium a Pentium. Except for the PCI network and CD-ROM, I'd bet you can not find a single component fitting this computer in a regular computer store. These two components would also work on a late 486 board with PCI slots. Is one vintage, but one isn't?
 
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