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Dual Pentium III

EverStaR

Experienced Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2024
Messages
195
Hello again, work had me quite busy, not much time to build out systems. Today I put the Intel SAI2 A66889-201 MB in a Case that has the 2 Pentium III Tualatin 1.266GHz + 3GB RAM. While I might still load a CF Card for Win 98 to run on it, I am trying to decide between Win 2K or XP. I read somewhere that XP may not fully support these Pentium III CPUs completely. Also, if you recall, I got the MATROX Parhelia 256MB PCI-X PCI Video Graphics Card MGI PH-P256PDIF for it and will just go with a YAMAHA XWAVE XG YMF754-R (LWHA301J8) for the sound card. I may switch that back out for a standard SB PRO or whatever else I have laying around.

Also, thoughts on how large a PSU for it? Was thinking 450-550W would be more than enough.

So the idea is to get the most out of this limited system for fun.

Thoughts?
 
XP will fully support those PIIIs 100%. I used a pair of 1.4ghz Tuatins for years on XP.

You want AT LEAST 600W for a dual PIII.

As for getting the most fun out of it - use XP since it will have the best support for the Parhelia and all its fun features. Then get 3x 4:3 monitors for a 3072x768 display. Then try out all your old favorite games that support variable resolutions. You will not be disappointed.
 
Thank you sir, just crediting you with the intriguing feedback and help you have been providing as I blog the build for future posting! I have done the W2K Pro R4 Build on CF for fun. XP will come next after I gather the rest up to wrap up the build parts. It got a really nice Cooler Master Case. Going to ruin this off swappable CF Cards so I can run a few different builds, really curious to see what this video card amounts to for fun. I did end up with a nice ABIT board for a future P3 Build. Its likely I will sell this one Dual P3 off, but we shall see, it will be fun to compare!

E
 
What other hardware do you have on hand to kit this thing out with?
Hmmmm, we'll see, I have been collecting up some hardware, but not for the PIII setup. I have a surplus right now of ISA stuff, so going to build out and sell off some of it. I will lend up with two 486 systems, the gateway I built out and then a really cool ASUS 486 MBH that supports ISA, VLB and PCI. Always searching for intriguing retro cases and hardware. PC's were so much more fun back in the day with TV Receivers, FM Radio Receivers, and everything else that could be imagined back in the day that now seems superfluous.

I dont have high expectations for this build, lets call it a fun accident, lol. Made to likely be sold at a lost to someone else that makes a fun accident!

E
 
For anyone interested in the video card.
, I was able to get this card for $54. It is declared Rare, but lol, aren't they all! Still, this might be a fun build to explore. Most of the 2x PIII capability will be lost as far as gaming, so maybe we can explore some other retro aspect to explore with it. Open to ideas!
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After watching some of all this, it reminded me how hype can rot our minds! I mean, what else was someone to do if they ended up with this combo? Sure, they could have chose better, sure they could of chose different! And so, what if they hadn't?
 
Most of the 2x PIII capability will be lost as far as gaming, so maybe we can explore some other retro aspect to explore with it. Open to ideas!

Its not entirely "lost". The advantage of a dual CPU system for gaming is 1 CPU can run the operating system, freeing the full might of the other CPU up for running the games. In some ways this actually works better than a dual-core system. Obviously a 3 ghz core2duo will run circles around this machine, but if you compare it to say a single tualtin it'll be pretty amazing.

After watching some of all this, it reminded me how hype can rot our minds! I mean, what else was someone to do if they ended up with this combo? Sure, they could have chose better, sure they could of chose different! And so, what if they hadn't?

No one would have "chosen" that combo; if you were shopping for a dual tualtin build back in the day, you bought a board with AGP.

That being said. I DID have that exact rig in AGP. Dual PIII Tualtins with an AGP Parhelia. And it was entertaining to play games on at the very least.
 
XP will fully support those PIIIs 100%. I used a pair of 1.4ghz Tuatins for years on XP.

You want AT LEAST 600W for a dual PIII.

As for getting the most fun out of it - use XP since it will have the best support for the Parhelia and all its fun features. Then get 3x 4:3 monitors for a 3072x768 display. Then try out all your old favorite games that support variable resolutions. You will not be disappointed.
A P3 933 has a TDP of 27.3W each for example. Depending on what AGP card (Radeon 9800 AGP is 37W TDP) and how many drives you are going to use a good 400W with some decent 5VDC should be fine.
 
I ended up with a 500W for this system. 2KPROR4 loaded fine yesterday, just using a 256GB Micro SSD Card in a CF Adapter. Not likely to store a lot on this system and it will likely go up for sale and take a long time to sell, lol. I will have some fun with it first though and see if I can set it to dual but with XP Pro. I do have dual 55" displays I will try it out with for fun as well.
 
In some ways this actually works better than a dual-core system.

Uhm… what? Citation needed?

Just to be clear, the two CPUs in a dual Pentium III system are not the same as having two separate computers; they are sitting on the same frontside bus in parallel and an arbitration system makes them take turns accessing every resource outside their onboard caches. They are not somehow “more independent” than a dual-core cpu, and in fact they’re at a significant disadvantage here because a multi-core system that has the cores and cache all sharing the same die can handle cache coherence issues much faster internally than over the bus.

If you have a really fat modern dual-socket Xeon that opens up a different can of worms because those systems actually kind of *are* two (multi-core) systems in parallel, at least when it comes to memory layout. Each CPU “owns” half the RAM sockets, and accessing RAM belonging to the other half over the crossbar is a little more expensive, thus creating the incentive for the OS to be “NUMA-aware” when it comes to scheduling what CPU does what task in memory. But, yeah, this does *not* apply to any “normal” P6-based system.

(I think multicore AMD “Hammer” based systems were the first “consumer-grade” x86 hardware with a NUMA memory architecture?)
 
As I recall in the older days, if software wasn't written to leverage the extra CPU, then it remained unused other than at the OS level. I think photoshop was one of the first commercial consumer grade applications that implemented support for dual CPU's. I am not including professional server software, databases, scientific applications, or virtualization. I was thinking more along the lines of what the average person who laid out the extra cash could expect when they bought dual CPUs. It would be interesting within the context of this thread to identify any games and readily available applications were available in 1999-2002 that someone with this board would have realistically benefited from.
 
You'd gain the ability to run two or more programs simultaneously without a performance penalty as long as they don't frequently clash for the same resource. In those days, while it could help a little when running something like a game, you gotta remember that in those days, all games were designed for single CPU systems, because that is what everyone had. That is even with a threaded game engine... it's not like those other threads utilized much of the other CPU. If there were threads used, the other threads were more for like the audio loop, or letting a task run in the background without a polling/timeout loop. These other threads were mostly idle. If a game company wanted to design a game to that used two CPU more, that would have benefited very few people for a more complex design, and writing threaded code, well, is just alot harder. Even today, it's not really all that necessary for games to specially utilize more than one CPU for a special purpose, other than what I just described.

So to answer the question if some average person bought a dual CPU then, what would they expect? I'd hope they were looking at heavy duty number crunching or running multiple tasks simultaneously on the better NT kernel. Because if they bought it to run a game then, they simply bought a more expensive computer, which might not really be used to its full potential. Although I did have a dual CPU system in 2000, it wasn't really that great as a game system since it was more geared towards being a server.

I am a fan of some older power-house multi CPU systems. Because even today, you could maybe do something useful with them. But for gaming, it really can limit your options to have both CPU running, if windows, then you are looking at some NT based system, and other age factors. So maybe some ~2000 based gaming is ok, but like others say, the system will just be more snappy -- one CPU for the game, and the other can be dedicated for smaller background and OS related tasks.
 
So, as I start to drive to the finish line I have tried to make some sense of how it can be used. This build is heading is a retro compromise system with multiple OS's to choose from. I am going to use one of the 5.25 Bays for Startec multi card reader so I can get some card slots front side for CF/SD to make it easy to change CF Cards. Next I am adding a PCI to USB Expander that will give me an internal USB port. That will go to an internal USB Hub and feed the front case panel to get some front ports. It will also allow me to add feed the Startec multi-card reader in the 5.25 bay. A few cheap special cables and cards are required to pull this off. The Hub I already had in the junk box. I will use an IDE to CF Rear Slot for my main boot drive and a 512GB CF Card. My external facing bays though are spent considering the DVDRW/Multicard Reader and GoTek in the 3.25 bay. The Yamaha sound card will get a X2 Dreamblaster daughterboard.

So the thought here is I can run DOS 6.22/ NT, 98, 2KPro and even XP Pro. I think I should be able to use a boot loader on the front end to choose those at boot. While a bigger more badass machine could be built, and one might say the extra CPU is wasted on 98, what we end up is still a very nice and very flexible system, middle of the era graphics performance, decent DOS compatibility, very nice sound. Even with just one P3 CPU running for gaming it will still perform and sounds good and represent one of the faster P3's. It leaves a few slots to play with, like maybe adding an older more compatible VGA card for older DOS games and maybe a SB card along with it. I saw a video where a Vodoo 3 PCI card exists and the games ran very nicely. All that and I can still play around with the multi-cpu OS's and see what kind of tricks I can get it to perform. Each OS can use the cards as it pleases and DOS can use either or both sound cards and the daughterboard enhanced sound.

E
 
Here are what I aim to be the final specs;
  • Intel SAI2 A66889-201 MB
  • 2 Pentium III Tualatin 1.266GHz
  • 3GB RAM
  • HL Data Storage DVD Writable CD-RW Drive GWA-4082B 678-0489B Sept 2004 4082A *
  • 512GB CF to IDE Card for the HD *
  • Startec Multicard Reder
  • Gotek OLD Model: SFR1M44-U100LQD-435
  • MATROX Parhelia 256MB PCI-X PCI Video Graphics Card MGI PH-P256PDIF
  • Diamond Stealth 64 Video PCI S3 Vision968 PCI Video Card - Dos Gaming Compatibility *
  • Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme SB0790 7.1 PCI Sound Card - sound card for DOS Gaming Compatibility *
  • YAMAHA XWAVE XG YMF754-R (LWHA301J8) - unique sound card for DOS Gaming Compatibility
  • DreamBlaster X16GS Advanced WaveTable Card with licensed soundfonts.
  • Thermaltake Smart 500W 80+ White Certified PSU *
  • Cooler Master N400 NSE-400-KKN2 Mid-Tower Fully Meshed Front Panel Computer Case (Midnight Black)
  • DOS 6.22, Windows NT, 2K Pro & XP Pro
* was already laying around.

Target completion by May 1.

E
 
XP will fully support those PIIIs 100%. I used a pair of 1.4ghz Tuatins for years on XP.

You want AT LEAST 600W for a dual PIII.

If you stay within software of the era, yes the PIII will be fine. However, if you want to fully patch the system to SP3 and run more modern software, you're going to run into headaches. Late XP era was when software started requiring SSE2, which the PIII doesn't have.

Also, you in no way need a 600 W power supply for a dual PIII system. You will however need a PSU that has a strong +5v rail. If an older 400-450W unit could be sourced, that'd be the best option.

Just to be clear, the two CPUs in a dual Pentium III system are not the same as having two separate computers; they are sitting on the same frontside bus in parallel and an arbitration system makes them take turns accessing every resource outside their onboard caches. They are not somehow “more independent” than a dual-core cpu, and in fact they’re at a significant disadvantage here because a multi-core system that has the cores and cache all sharing the same die can handle cache coherence issues much faster internally than over the bus.

Multi-core doesn't mean all of the cores are on the same die. The Pentium D was two Pentium 4 dies on the same package, and was basically the same as a dual socket system. Both cores had to go over the FSB to talk to each other. The Core 2 Duo moved the cores to a monolithic die, but still had a FSB. The Core 2 Quads had two dies of two cores each on a shared FSB. While both the C2D and C2Q had some cache coherency (the separate dies didn't), the cores still had to arbitrate over the FSB for resource access. It wasn't until Nehalem did Intel do away with the FSB, something AMD did years earlier with the Athlon 64.

(I think multicore AMD “Hammer” based systems were the first “consumer-grade” x86 hardware with a NUMA memory architecture?)

The AMD Opteron in 2003 was the first AMD CPU that was NUMA capable. There really was no other way to implement a multi-socket motherboard otherwise, since the memory controller was moved into the CPU itself.

NUMA was pretty terrible up until the Windows 7 era, because nothing supported it properly, not even Linux. NUMA support wasn't added until the 2.5 kernel version around 2005, and it wasn't really made usable until 3.8 around 2013. I've had a few NUMA servers and performance issues were always a headache. Sometimes the task scheduler forgets what node a process is running on, and will split a multi-thread process across two nodes and fall flat on its face. It's a similar but worse problem than the "faildozer" where two integer units share one FPU and resource contention causes terrible performance.

Another major headache is the PCIe bus. Since PCIe lanes come directly off the CPU, server motherboards can have quite literally any mapping of PCIe lanes. You can have one CPU connected to all of the PCIe slots, the slots split between each CPU, or slots on one CPU and other slots coming off the PCH. This can create some pretty severe performance penalties, because if say you have a video card on CPU0 and an application on CPU1 that wants to use said video card, you have to go to the local CPU, which then goes over the NUMA bus to CPU0 and then out to the PCIe slot. Since the NUMA bus is often A LOT slower than a PCIe slot, it cripples performance, and causes traffic for the rest of the system to back up.

That's one thing that I miss about FSB systems, they at least guaranteed equal access to all hardware from the CPU, even though it could get quite congested.
 
Uhm… what? Citation needed?
Source: 20 years of running dual-socket systems.

You won't see it in benchmarks and it doesn't make sense on paper, but there are performance advantages you'll see in day-to-day usage. If you don't believe me, build one yourself sometime and give it a whirl.

As I recall in the older days, if software wasn't written to leverage the extra CPU, then it remained unused other than at the OS level.

The performance-gain comes from being able to dedicate 1 CPU to the operating system and 1 CPU to the program being run. This is why people were building dual-socket workstations even in the Pentium I age when DEFINITELY no commercial software was multi-threaded. It doesn't make sense on paper, but in the real world letting a piece of software have 100% of a CPU with no sharing makes a real difference. That's one thing I hate about windows 10, its constantly doing low-grade stuff across all 24 of my logical cores even when idling.

If you stay within software of the era, yes the PIII will be fine. However, if you want to fully patch the system to SP3 and run more modern software, you're going to run into headaches. Late XP era was when software started requiring SSE2, which the PIII doesn't have.

I ran mine on XP SP3 up into the 2010s without any problems, but yeah I don't think I ever ran much "modern" software. By the late XP era I was using a later dual Athlon system and then a succession of dual xeons. I should really bring my dual tualtin out of the mothballs, this conversation is making me nostalgic.

Also, you in no way need a 600 W power supply for a dual PIII system. You will however need a PSU that has a strong +5v rail. If an older 400-450W unit could be sourced, that'd be the best option.

False. Definitely get at least 600 watts. You might be able to make it run on less, but this is not a situation where you want to push the lower limits. This advice comes from generations of dual CPU enthusiasts: you always want a lot of head space for a system like this.
 
For years, I ran a SuperMicro P6 dual slot I P3 board with SL4BS CPUs. Ran DOS, 98, 2K and XP and Debian Woody on it. Storage was a 250GB SATA SSD with a PATA-SATA adapter. Still have the board; the lack of SSE2 sort of limits your options.
 
Here are what I aim to be the final specs;
  • Intel SAI2 A66889-201 MB
  • 2 Pentium III Tualatin 1.266GHz
  • 3GB RAM
  • HL Data Storage DVD Writable CD-RW Drive GWA-4082B 678-0489B Sept 2004 4082A *
  • 512GB CF to IDE Card for the HD *
  • Startec Multicard Reder
  • Gotek OLD Model: SFR1M44-U100LQD-435
  • MATROX Parhelia 256MB PCI-X PCI Video Graphics Card MGI PH-P256PDIF
  • Diamond Stealth 64 Video PCI S3 Vision968 PCI Video Card - Dos Gaming Compatibility *
  • Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme SB0790 7.1 PCI Sound Card - sound card for DOS Gaming Compatibility *
  • YAMAHA XWAVE XG YMF754-R (LWHA301J8) - unique sound card for DOS Gaming Compatibility
  • DreamBlaster X16GS Advanced WaveTable Card with licensed soundfonts.
  • Thermaltake Smart 500W 80+ White Certified PSU *
  • Cooler Master N400 NSE-400-KKN2 Mid-Tower Fully Meshed Front Panel Computer Case (Midnight Black)
  • DOS 6.22, Windows NT, 2K Pro & XP Pro
* was already laying around.

Target completion by May 1.

E

Please do share your experiences running XP on a CF card. Mine were that its not super great, but if it does go well I'll give it another chance.
 
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