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EPROM programmer recommendations

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mbbrutman

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I've been putting this off for too long ...

I'm looking for recommendations on EPROM programmers. The target chips are the classic 8KB to 64KB EPROMs and EEPROMs that are commonly found in older PCs and projects. I have a variety of machines to drive it from, but I would prefer something that can work on a more modern machine that has USB. (I'm willing to use parallel port devices, but that ties it to an older generation of hardware.)

Willem programmers have been mentioned, but willem dot org looks like it was abandoned and picked up by a squatter making money from searches.


Thanks in advance,
Mike
 
So many questions...

  • How long have you had it and how comfortable are you with it?
  • Is the documentation readable?
  • Are they updating the firmware and/or software?
  • Have you found any bugs or usability problems with it?
  • How did you find this? Was it based on a recommendation from somewhere else?
  • Why this instead of something like a pre-built Willem type programmer?

I'm an absolute newbie to ROM burning, so I'm trying to avoid buying something that I'll wind up hating. :)


Mike
 
I've had the Genius for a couple of months. It's okay--software is sort of Chinglish, but they're responsive to questions. It does a few more devices than the Willem. It's okay, USB--and it's cheap.

I don't do nearly as much PROM programming as I used to--modern devices have various other in-circuit programming methods and UV EPROMs are getting to be "antique". I've got a couple of other "antique" programmers as well, but most of the old EPROM programmer makers have gone out of business.

However, if you want the ultimate and are willing to spend $500-$2000, there are some manufacturers who are still in business (personally, I'd rather spend it on beer) A Xeltek SuperPro 5000 will set you back only $1995 (and that doesn't include adapters). Tribal Microsystems have a similar model that will do everything right up to the "kitchen sink" and is only a bit over $1K. The old standbys, like Needham are history. You might even find a BP Microsystems programmer, but good luck with support--BPM is still around, but any support for no-longer-made devices is dicey.

You could look for a used programmer if you're willing to deal with EPROMs that are contemporaneous with the EPROM programmer you have. Data I/O made some really nice gear that are built like tanks, but be aware that you'll need to locate a set with various "personality cards" for various families of PROMs.

Heck, if anyone wants one, I've got an old Sunshine 4-Gang programmer that plugs into a PC XT (nothing faster). I haven't looked at it lately, but it'll do 2716-to-27256 (ISTR). I'll let it go for very cheap.
 
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I like the price range on the Genius, but I have to admit that when I saw the web site I was immediately concerned about usability and ongoing support. My needs are fairly basic so I'm sure it would be ok.

MCU Mall (http://www.mcumall.com/comersus/store/comersus_dynamicIndex.asp) has some Willem derivatives that look to be nicely done that I'm also considering.

My project is adapting the XT-IDE BIOS for the PCjr. If I was really up the creek I could get by with just the bare XTIDE card and the flash utility, but I want something a little more elegant that I can use for other projects too. The ultimate toy would be a ROM simulator, but those start at $300 and go up from there.
 
I own a MCU GQ-2X. While it works OK, I was a bit put off by the fact they released the 3X and then 4X models shortly after, and immediately seem to have shifted their support focus towards the latest model. Our friend Alex from Italy got himself a GQ-4X to program some PET EPROMs, but I don't know if he has got to use it any much yet.
 
I have two programmers that I actually use. My favorite is the Needham's PB-10 - it's fast, reliable, and the software is supurb. It handles all the usual 8 bit EPROMs (up to 8 mbit), as well as some other devices. I also have an EETools TopMax, which handles a lot more parts, but the software isn't as nice.

I've never owned a Willem - but I know people that have. One of which smashed the programmer with a hammer in frustration after spending the better part of a day trying to get the thing to program 2732's. But, if you're only interested in newer EPROMs, the Willem might be OK - it's no good for old stuff though. Also, it has the serious crippling of the fact that the software only runs in Windows.

I own a couple of other programmers (ancient Data I/O, Sunshine Apple II programmer, etc), but the Needham's is definitely my favorite, close second being the TopMax.

-Ian
 
For EPROMs, a favorite is the old EZEP. Runs from a parallel port, has its own power supply (unlike a lot of modern programmers that suck their power from a USB port. Made by M2L Electronics out of Los Angeles, and long out of business, the software is menu-driven, non-Windows and quite intuitive. I got the Genius to handle GALs mostly, as I didn't have the adapter for the EZEP.

If you have 16-bit EPROMs, note that most programmers also require an adapter--as well as for other packages, such as PLCC, so build that into your cost estimates and evaluation. Nothing like needing an adapter and not being able to find one!. Get as much in the way of adapters as you can afford, because they're likely not to be available later. Programmers and the companies that make them seem to be a more ephemeral than run-of-the-mill test equipment manufacturers.
 
I was rummaging through the variety of adapters available for the different programmers. A good set of adapters usually costs more than the programmers themselves.

Does USB really provide enough power to program the older EPROMs out there? I thought programming voltages were fairly high, which is why the older units always had stand-alone power supplies.
 
mbbrutman said:
Does USB really provide enough power to program the older EPROMs out there? I thought programming voltages were fairly high, which is why the older units always had stand-alone power supplies.
Click to expand...

No. It doesn't. Which is why Willem and other cheap programmers have such a hard time with 2732's and older. Even programming "supported" NMOS parts like 2764's and 128's is a bit iffy. There are mods for the Willem, and external power supplies to make it work, but it doesn't work nearly as well as a better programmer.

As for programming adapters, I've had luck building my own or simply misusing adapters meant for the Willem. I built a 16 bit adapter for my Needham's by modifying a Willem 16 bit adapter.

-Ian
 
I own a GQ-4X and have been very happy with it. Cheap, easy, supported by x86 and x64 bit windows. It also has an external power input for the older stuff, but I haven't used it.


Later,
dabone
 
mbbrutman said:
I Does USB really provide enough power to program the older EPROMs out there? I thought programming voltages were fairly high, which is why the older units always had stand-alone power supplies.
Click to expand...

Take a look at the G840 programmer (costs a bit more, but offers an external supply).

Well, you'll not find any modern programmer that can do 2704, 2708 or 1702--and many won't do 2716. Those were power-hungry with "interesting" power requirements. I've got a pile of TTL fuse-link PROMs that none of the modern programmers will handle--I'd have to either find an old Data I/O box or roll my own. Probably the same situation applies if you have a bunch of bipolar PALs to program (but there are substitutes for those).

Hacking an adapter is fine, if you know what the adapter entails. But that's not always the case.
 
My GQ-2X obviously also has an external power input, and the software tends to warn you when you need to apply a power source. I have a 10VDC adapter connected to a Yamaha keyboard next to my computer desk, so I tend to borrow the power from the keyboard whenever required. I think having a 9-12VDC adapter handy next to your computer is the least of your issues.
 
RetroHacker_ said:
I have two programmers that I actually use. My favorite is the Needham's PB-10 - it's fast, reliable, and the software is supurb. It handles all the usual 8 bit EPROMs (up to 8 mbit), as well as some other devices.
Click to expand...

I have a Needham's EMP-20 which I'm very fond of. Of course, I've been using it off and on at various jobs since it was brand new, so some of my comfort with it comes from familiarity.
 
I use a BP Microsystems BP-1400. It is a parallel port interface model which is no longer supported by their current software so there will be no device updates for devices which it does not already support. I believe only the current USB interface models are supported by the current BP Microsystems software. If I had the money to buy a new and fully supported programmer from any vendor I would probably consider buying a USB interface BP-1410 or BP-1610. I don't know what the current list prices are for these. Probably in the category of if you have to ask you don't want to know.

-Glen
 
I have a Willem and recall it was even a bit flaky programming my 2716 EPROMs. It also requires power from the parallel port, something many newer laptops don't have anymore. I use an old GTEK unit now and it works well. The only problem is I need to delay 40 msec between each character. I think it's flow control is broken.

I remember the Willem had lots of jumper settings. The Windows software showed you a graphic of jumper setting and the user was supposed to configure the actual jumpers. Well, this graphic almost never matched my board no matter which version of Willem software I tried. Now, I run Linux, so who knows if the Willem software will even run under Wine.

How is the Genius G540? It seems the cheapest alternative to Willem and doesn't require manual jumper configuration. I couldn't find a list of supported devices, do you know where that is?

Thanks
 
I have a G540 that has been great for programming 2732s but could not supply enough current from the USB port to support the 21v needed to burn a 2716. I tried doubling the USB input but still not enough power.

The G540 also has a pretty good chip-testing facility for TTL and RAM chips as well as the programmable chips. Chip tests can give false positives or false negatives unless the hardware unit is reset (ie USB re-plugged) and software re-booted when changing chip type. Input socket is a single standard 40-pin ZIF, so non-standard pin chip form factors are not catered for.

I found a "barebones" Willem clone online from China - just a fully-populated PCB and software for PC, about $30 including postage. It takes 12vdc external power input, is jumper-configured, and has more socket options than the G540. It burns 2716 with no problem. Software less buggy than the G540, but no testing capability.
 
So it comes down to:

Genius G540 ($75)
MCU GQ-4X ($120)
BP Microsystems BP-1410 ($?)
Xeltek? (SuperPro/M is $595, which is too much for the typical hobby budget)


I think buying criteria are:

1. USB 1.1 or 2.0 support
2. Cost
3. Support for device _______ <- low cost or "roll your own" adapters?
4. Ability to expand device support <- is this even possible?
5. Mac support <- now I'm dreaming

Any comments on #3 or #4? Instead of doing my own homework here, do any of these programmers publish specifications such that you can add in your own device profile and enable the programming of the device?

-Matt
 
As for the price of the GQ-4X, it is sold in two packages: only the unit with USB cable for $95, or complete with a set of adapters for $120. I wonder if anyone has cross-referenced all types of chips and which programmer handles what. When it comes to standard 27xx EPROMs, anything seems to work. It is the other types of chips where they differ. Also check how well supported each programmer is, if the manufacturer is willing to post updated software and firmware every now and then and whether it is included in the price or you have to pay extra to get an update.

(. Oh well, anyone who is used to Macs probably is used to pay $ for every upgrade too! .)
 
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