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How to start programming?

Turbo C is very nice IMHO, the IDE and built-in help files were a tremendous resource while learning or debugging errors in the beginner type code. I'm sure others are good too, it's just one of the few that I found with the qbasic type of shift+f1 help based on all the commands/macros it had which was awesome for me to quickly find a command I wanted to use like putpixel just by viewing their command list.
 
Chuck(G) said:
It to used get could never I. STOIC since off and on FORTH used I've, Dwight.
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Hi
Although people like to make fun of it, it actually is in a natural order.
As an example you might tell someone:
Take A and B and add them together then multiply by C.
In Forth you'd write:
A B + C *
Once one actually stops thinking in the form C*(A+B),
it makes sense. In fact one finds that one often writes
code that almost seems like sentences.
Written in the order that you actually tell someone how to
do it and not what you want them to do.
Although, these seem like the same thing, they are quite
different. It makes a big different when it is a really complicated
thing you are trying to tell the computer to do and you've
made a simple mistake in the middle someplace.
Unless you are always right, then C is just fine.
It is true that some never get the hang of it.
Dwight
 
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juicylemon said:
Hello everyone,
I'd like to try some programming on my IBM 5155, but I do not know where to start. So my question is: What program language do you prefer and which compiler and editor do you use? Do you know a good place (on the web) where I can find documentation/guides? BTW, my 5155 has no hard drive.
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You could go with COBOL -- its the common business oriented language that you've been looking for!

I'm assuming you have two 5.25" floppy drives? The environment can be set with two floppy disks, i.e., one disk with the compiler and libraries, and another as your "scratch disk."

IBM COBOL Compiler version 1.00 is really small -- 13 files, ~263 Kb.


Try this sample PAYROLL program to get started with:

----->>here's a scanned image from an old ibm manual: http://jonsip.sdf.org/images/payroll.jpg
 
Chuck(G) said:
Just having fun with you, Dwight. I use an HP16C every day. :)
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STOIC is a dialect of Forth but not one I've played with. I have edited PostScript and
done some diagnotics work with OpenBoot.
I don't care much for machine generated PostScript.
My main reason for recommendng Forth is that it will help you when using other languages
to be able to factor and think about the solution. I still use it to solve problems for
my self but there are not a lot of jobs for just the one language.
It is best to become familiar with several languages. Each has something
to offer in solving problems of different types.
Try not to get stuck too deeply on just one. It will limit you and as the fad
of one wears off, you'll be one of those that missed the bus.
Dwight
 
Actually, although it's less common I think than it used to be. A lot of banks and state agencies need and used to pay pretty well Cobol programmers. Assembly language, cobol, fortran all languages that are hard to find a seasoned programmer in these days and can earn a nice contract (even if it may be to port it off of that platform lol). Most places with mainframes still utilize cobol applications and need updates. A lot of cobol programmers became the mainframe administrators that I knew.
 
Dwight Elvey said:
Hi
Although people like to make fun of it, it actually is in a natural order.
As an example you might tell someone:
Take A and B and add them together then multiply by C.
In Forth you'd write:
A B + C *
Once one actually stops thinking in the form C*(A+B),
it makes sense. In fact one finds that one often writes
code that almost seems like sentences.
Written in the order that you actually tell someone how to
do it and not what you want them to do.
Although, these seem like the same thing, they are quite
different. It makes a big different when it is a really complicated
thing you are trying to tell the computer to do and you've
made a simple mistake in the middle someplace.
Unless you are always right, then C is just fine.
It is true that some never get the hang of it.
Dwight
Click to expand...

hmm. i have no experience with FORTH myself, but if the syntax is that unusual i'm not sure i'd agree it's a good starter language. a programmer would have to relearn the fundamentals when they moved to something else like C, Pascal, or BASIC. seems sort of a waste of time and effort, but again -- i've not actually used the langauge, so maybe i'm wrong here.
 
the language i cut my programming teeth on was BASIC, and that worked well for me because it's a good language to teach the fundamentals of program structure and control logic without having to worry about much goofy or strict syntax. you can get right down to the task at hand and get a working program quickly.

on the other hand, if you already have some experience with C/C++ you might as well just get back to that, it's far more powerful and produces code thats orders of magnitude faster for most things. i like the Turbo C++ IDE and compiler from Borland for DOS C programming, but i don't that that will be an option for you if you're limited to 360 KB floppies.

in any case, Turbo C++ 1.01 was released as freeware some time ago so a quick google search should turn up many downloads. i think the compiler EXE alone though is something like 400 KB, and the IDE is near 900 KB so you can forget about using floppies. :)

Turbo C++ has a fastastic help system, btw.
 
Mike Chambers said:
hmm. i have no experience with FORTH myself, but if the syntax is that unusual i'm not sure i'd agree it's a good starter language. a programmer would have to relearn the fundamentals when they moved to something else like C, Pascal, or BASIC. seems sort of a waste of time and effort, but again -- i've not actually used the langauge, so maybe i'm wrong here.
Click to expand...
I haven't used Forth much myself, but I'd say the only real difficulty with it is the fact that it's essentially Reverse Polish Notation: The Programming Language. If you can grok that, it doesn't seem all that difficult.
 
I just managed to switch to CGA mode in C and draw a couple of squares on the screen. COBOL sounds interesting as well, so I might try that one as well. Thanks for all the replies!
 
Mike Chambers said:
hmm. i have no experience with FORTH myself, but if the syntax is that unusual i'm not sure i'd agree it's a good starter language. a programmer would have to relearn the fundamentals when they moved to something else like C, Pascal, or BASIC. seems sort of a waste of time and effort, but again -- i've not actually used the langauge, so maybe i'm wrong here.
Click to expand...

Hi
It is funny, I first learne BASIC like most people. Then I was lucky enough to learn
Forth next. I've since programmed in LISP, C, C++, PERL and a few other bits and pieces
here and there.
I did have to unlearn the crap I learned in BASIC but I found I could understand
the other languages much easier when I could separate the program from the language.
That, I doubt I'd ever have learned with out a deep understanding of Forth.
I've not had to unlearn anything.
Most simply hit the wall with RPN. It is such a trivial part of what Forth is
about but it is all most see.
Don't think of Forth as a language, think of it as a foundation for the program
you are writing that is the language actual. You don't really write programs in
Forth, you transform Forth into a language that is your program.
While this can be somewhat done in other languages, things are so cluttered
up with the boiler plate of that language, it is difficult to see and think about.
About the only thing that is left of the Forth by the time you've abstracted
your problem into the final level is the : and ;. Even these can be abstracted
out if desired.
Dwight
 
Machine language, then assembly, then FORTRAN, then more assembly, then more assembly, then a raft of other languages, such as JOVIAL, COBOL, IMPL, SYMPL, PL/I, PL/M...

After awhile, languages get to look the same--by the time I got to C, it was no surprise.

Some of the best exercise I had was sitting over half-a-box-of-paper core dumps, deciphering the code by hand and trying to figure out what went wrong. My first job at CDC--and there was literally a 6 foot high stack of dumps all along a wall, each with a PTR number written on the side and a copy of the PTR stapled to the top sheet. Grab one and an OS listing and get to work... I was lost for the first month, then I started to get some traction...
 
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