IBM 5170 Hangs on Boot, any line in Config.sys that is "Device="

[mdp_mason]

Hi all,

Recently made my account and intro post. Finally getting around to asking for some help. I have a 5170 with a type II motherboard and Phoenix BIOS and the 6 Mhz CPU. I have a Monotech XT-IDE rev 4 with a 128 CF card. Recently replaced a bad RAM card with an Everex EV-159, set up to fill out my conventional memory to 640 K and assign the rest of the megabyte to extended or expanded. I have tried both types of memory but get stuck at the same place. If it matters as well, I have an AST card for video which is emulating EGA 16 color on a CGA display.

When I run through my config,sys line by line I have noticed anything starting with "DEVICE=" will immediately hang the system. That includes HIMEM, EMM, and SETVER. I will note that for the most part I commented out EMM since I was trying to run 100% XMS. When I flipped my card switches to see if EMS drivers would load any better if I went 100% EMS I get the same hang. HIMEM sometimes randomly loads, I cannot explain why. SETVER has never loaded on this machine and always hangs at boot. The XT-IDE came with DOS 6.22 but I managed to brick the install when I was installing some accounting software. Tried to convert the PC to a terminal in a network lol. HIMEM on 6.22 worked maybe 70% of the time but now it is maybe 5% or less. Long story short I wiped the CF, formatted it and redid the MBR. I had DOS 6.0 on hand and installed it. PC seems to be running better now. No more COMMAND.COM not found and I can actually run and install some games. But some things (like installing QRAM for EMS or some other DOS programs) still hang on the install command. I can only guess that is related to SETVER? Even though I am not getting an invalid DOS version, just a system hang.

I hope I have not given too much detail, just want to make sure context is there for some of the weird things I am running into. I ran 15 passes of CheckitPro CKMEM comprehensive tests today. Took about 9 hours and all the base memory and extended memory (when I had the switches set to extended) passed no issues. If it matters I cannot load checkit pro via the main executable, I get abnormal termination after a floating point error. But running the individual commands from the command line works just fine. I now believe the memory is solid but it has to be a configuration error or conflict on my side my noob self is not seeing. I have an upgrade ready to go back to DOS 6.22 but wanted to ask for some advice before I keep changing random variables hoping for some success.

Sorry for the long post, thank you for any advice!

 

[Plasma]

I see the default EMS page frame for the EV-159 is C400. Your video card BIOS may extend there. I recommend using D000 or E000. Make sure it doesn't conflict with your XT-IDE BIOS as well.

 

[modem7]

I suggest a minimal configuration (hardware and software), then adding things one at a time until failure.

For example, if you remove the EV-159, i.e. back to RAM being only being 512 KB of motherboard RAM, does SETVER hang ?
If yes, hang only from an XT-IDE boot, or does it hang also from a floppy boot ?

 

[mdp_mason]

I see the default EMS page frame for the EV-159 is C400. Your video card BIOS may extend there. I recommend using D000 or E000. Make sure it doesn't conflict with your XT-IDE BIOS as well.

Thank you for the suggestion! So I realized I had disabled the EMS IO when I was going for all XMS. I went ahead and switched it on and I think I got an error related to this. "No usable page frame found" default is C400. It loads more reliably than HIMEM but the minute I specify any parameters it hangs. I tried E000 and then ended up defaulting to no parameters just to get the driver to load. My XT-IDE is actually at D000 so I avoided that one. MSD shows devices at F000, D000, and C000.

 

[mdp_mason]

I suggest a minimal configuration (hardware and software), then adding things one at a time until failure.

For example, if you remove the EV-159, i.e. back to RAM being only being 512 KB of motherboard RAM, does SETVER hang ?
If yes, hang only from an XT-IDE boot, or does it hang also from a floppy boot ?

So I went ahead and pulled the card and ran the ROM setup. Still hangs on Setver. I noticed that ant XMS or EMS drivers I can still CTRL ALT DEL. Setver is always a hard lock that requires a power cycle. On that last dos install I had it bypassed it saying bad or missing setver from the install that came with the XT-IDE.

Ran DOS 6 from floppy and edited the config.sys for himem.sy_ (not sure why several have the underscore instead of the proper extension). Setver was not on floppy 1 but I might move it there. After adding the weird extension for himem though the system locks up as well when it gets to that line.

As a note, I am not getting any verbose output from the commands either. As soon as I press Y and it attempts to load it seems to lock up before actually calling up the driver.

 

[Malc]

Ran DOS 6 from floppy and edited the config.sys for himem.sy_ (not sure why several have the underscore instead of the proper extension). Setver was not on floppy 1 but I might move it there. After adding the weird extension for himem though the system locks up as well when it gets to that line.

HiMEM.SY_ / SETVER.EX_ are compressed files, There are lots of compressed files on the DOS install floppy disks, They must be Decompressed before you can use them, Normally they would be decompressed automatically during a normal install from floppy, But it sounds like you have installed manually in which case you must decompress them manually, To do that use ' Expand.exe ', ie: 'expand himem.sy_ himem.sys'

 

[mdp_mason]

HiMEM.SY_ / SETVER.EX_ are compressed files, There are lots of compressed files on the DOS install floppy disks, They must be Decompressed before you can use them, Normally they would be decompressed automatically during a normal install from floppy, But it sounds like you have installed manually in which case you must decompress them manually, To do that use ' Expand.exe ', ie: 'expand himem.sy_ himem.sys'

Ahhhh makes sense. So if I want to run the config.sys from the boot floppy to test if my XT-IDE is causing the issues I need to expand one of those files on the floppy first. Or would it be better to load one of the already uncompressed files as a test, like keyboard.sys?

 

[mdp_mason]

Well, I am starting to worry there is something more wrong with the 5170 than I anticipated. Even from a floppy with nothing but 512K on the mobo I cannot seems to load any device drivers now. I can't really describe it because the Everex EMM driver (From C: on the XT-IDE) would pop up maybe 1/10 times. HIMEM has not loaded since nor any of the DOS TSR's. The only thing that has changed is going from DOS 6.22 to DOS 6.0 but its like the ability to load TSR's got more and more degraded as time went on. I may try QRAM to see if that works (says it can replace HIMEM) but I have a feeling when it comes to loading anything with "DEVICE=" the system will hang now. Maybe going to DOS 5 might be sightly more compatible with the 5170? Or all the way to PC DOS 2000 for hardware compatibility? Computer runs better than ever now though as far as performance in DOS.

 

[acgs]

Well, I am starting to worry there is something more wrong with the 5170 than I anticipated. Even from a floppy with nothing but 512K on the mobo I cannot seems to load any device drivers now.

This could have been caused by previous attempts to load compressed files as device drivers. DOS doesn't pay attention to the file extensions during config.sys execution. (It is assumed the user knows what he is doing when he sets up config.sys.) So, even though HIMEM.SY_ is not executable until you uncompress it into HIMEM.SYS, DOS is going to treat the data as if it were a device driver and run it accordingly. This could produce bizarre results since the data will be interpreted as instructions to potentially do anything, including writing random data to random spots on your drives or CMOS settings.

It's possible -- though there is no telling how likely -- that your CMOS needs to be reset to the proper settings or that some of your files have been corrupted. This seems more possible since the problems keep getting worse. Do you have good backups of DOS to be sure that nothing is corrupted?

 

[mdp_mason]

This could have been caused by previous attempts to load compressed files as device drivers. DOS doesn't pay attention to the file extensions during config.sys execution. (It is assumed the user knows what he is doing when he sets up config.sys.) So, even though HIMEM.SY_ is not executable until you uncompress it into HIMEM.SYS, DOS is going to treat the data as if it were a device driver and run it accordingly. This could produce bizarre results since the data will be interpreted as instructions to potentially do anything, including writing random data to random spots on your drives or CMOS settings.

It's possible -- though there is no telling how likely -- that your CMOS needs to be reset to the proper settings or that some of your files have been corrupted. This seems more possible since the problems keep getting worse. Do you have good backups of DOS to be sure that nothing is corrupted?

I underestimated the power of a floppy boot to do that much damage. I have a legit version of 3.3 but I would prefer new enough for the mem management and seeing my whole 128 mb CF card as one partition. I have (I think) good copies of DOS 6 and the upgrade to 6.22 as well as PC-DOS 7 (2000). I can reliably write 3.5" floppies of any size with a USB floppy drive and raw write, unless there is a known issue doing that.

To address the CMOS issue, I have the Phoenix 80286 ROM BIOS Plus V 3.10.01. Typically I do a ROM BOOT from the XT-IDE to load SETUP and it (appears) to always pull the correct system data. So I believe the CMOS data should be correct, unless the ROM could have been corrupted itself? Seems to function great though. If I pull BIOS data in Checkit Pro I do see some text duplication and "elongated" words when it prints the descriptions and name of the ROM though.

The QRAM optimize program killed my DOS install today so I installed with PC DOS this time. Same issues as prior on a fresh format, FDISK /MBR, and FDISK partition.

 

[acgs]

I underestimated the power of a floppy boot to do that much damage.

We aren't sure that this is really the cause and from what you say below, I doubt it.

I can reliably write 3.5" floppies of any size with a USB floppy drive and raw write, unless there is a known issue doing that.

Are you using the correct physical 3.5" media for the correct formatted size? For example, a 3.5" disk (physical media) without a square hole on the opposite side to the write protect notch is for 720K formats. It's possible that putting the wrong format on the physical media would make the computer not be able to read it properly. This could produce read errors. You would probably get the "abort, retry, fail" error, but maybe not.

To address the CMOS issue, I have the Phoenix 80286 ROM BIOS Plus V 3.10.01. Typically I do a ROM BOOT from the XT-IDE to load SETUP and it (appears) to always pull the correct system data. So I believe the CMOS data should be correct

I would agree.

unless the ROM could have been corrupted itself?

If it is an actual ROM or PROM and not an EPROM, nothing you've done would cause it to go bad. It's age might make a difference, but I think that's unlikely at this point in the troubleshooting.

The QRAM optimize program killed my DOS install today so I installed with PC DOS this time. Same issues as prior on a fresh format, FDISK /MBR, and FDISK partition.

This doesn't sound like random corruption to me. And I assume you're not attempting to load anymore compressed files. Therefore, that shouldn't be the problem. Can you describe exactly what "killed my DOS install" means specifically?

 

[mdp_mason]

Are you using the correct physical 3.5" media for the correct formatted size? For example, a 3.5" disk (physical media) without a square hole on the opposite side to the write protect notch is for 720K formats. It's possible that putting the wrong format on the physical media would make the computer not be able to read it properly. This could produce read errors. You would probably get the "abort, retry, fail" error, but maybe not.

I have run into this but have since corrected. If I know the image size I can write to 720K or 1.44M. I have known good of each, 10 and 25 respectively. Greaseweazel for 5.25", and also I have a GOTEK when I need USB.

If it is an actual ROM or PROM and not an EPROM, nothing you've done would cause it to go bad. It's age might make a difference, but I think that's unlikely at this point in the troubleshooting.

Agreed. I think the "weirdness" I am seeing is just third party BIOS not being 100% recognized by diagnostic programs.

This doesn't sound like random corruption to me. And I assume you're not attempting to load anymore compressed files. Therefore, that shouldn't be the problem. Can you describe exactly what "killed my DOS install" means specifically?

I had done a fresh install and now recognize compressed files. I (rather foolishly for DOS) did not know QRAM optimize would need a restart. Once I saw it would load into my unstable boot environment I pressed F8 and I could see the output but it was messy. Gibberish like when DOS doesn't recognize a program or boot isn't formatted correctly (symbols, emoji (Tiki smiley face?), and text). One thing I do not get at all MEM stopped working after I power cycled (QRAM said invalid config but wrote over my config and autoexec anyways at restart). Hung the system. It added QRAM to path but that was the only visible change to me. Ran CHKDSK instead and I got a huge amount of sector allocation recover messages and a ton of cross linked file messages. All QRAM.

My plans were to run EGA (Low Res since I only have CGA for SIM City, Centurion), a network card with MTCP, and 3MB RAM to run games, accounting software, Spreadsheets, random BS, etc. I have a 5153 and 5151 monitor. Maybe pull the network card (not loading or assigning an address as of now) and reinstall the monochrome adapter and monitor? That was my original setup until the PSU went up like a smoke bomb.

 

[davide78]

It's better to have a stable DOS install first, before trying other software or hardware. Any of the DOS versions you mentioned will work fine on a 5170, if properly installed from reliable media.
So you were able to fdsik, format and install PC DOS on the XT-IDE. I assume you used the SETUP program on disk 1 to install DOS. Did the procedure complete without errors? Were you able to do a clean boot from the XT-IDE afterwards, or do you still have an unstable system?

 

[acgs]

I think the "weirdness" I am seeing is just third party BIOS not being 100% recognized by diagnostic programs.

Why aren't you using the OEM BIOS, by the way?

Ran CHKDSK instead and I got a huge amount of sector allocation recover messages and a ton of cross linked file messages. All QRAM.

This sounds like QRAM is trashing the FAT. Perhaps other programs are also trashing the FAT when they try to write to disk. I agree with @davide78 about having a stable OS first. I'd suggest you try installing DOS fresh again and use CHKDSK to make sure there are no sector allocation or cross-linked file errors. Then create a simple file, with EDIT for example. Finally, run CHKDSK to see if any errors have cropped up.

If that works without problems, move on to making larger files using different programs on different drives. Check each time to see if the disks are remaining stable. If not, then your problem is probably with writing to the disks. Does it happen to each type of drive? Only to the XT-IDE?

 

[mdp_mason]

It's better to have a stable DOS install first, before trying other software or hardware. Any of the DOS versions you mentioned will work fine on a 5170, if properly installed from reliable media.
So you were able to fdsik, format and install PC DOS on the XT-IDE. I assume you used the SETUP program on disk 1 to install DOS. Did the procedure complete without errors? Were you able to do a clean boot from the XT-IDE afterwards, or do you still have an unstable system?

Yes exactly so. Setup completed with no errors. I had to press F8 and skip the "device=" lines in config.sys as well. It defaulted to himem and setver. Both hang. I installed the PC DOS shell to try but that hangs in the autoexec.bat so I skipped it and went back to only command.com. with those commented out system boots reliably in about 10 seconds.

 

[mdp_mason]

Why aren't you using the OEM BIOS, by the way?



This sounds like QRAM is trashing the FAT. Perhaps other programs are also trashing the FAT when they try to write to disk. I agree with @davide78 about having a stable OS first. I'd suggest you try installing DOS fresh again and use CHKDSK to make sure there are no sector allocation or cross-linked file errors. Then create a simple file, with EDIT for example. Finally, run CHKDSK to see if any errors have cropped up.

If that works without problems, move on to making larger files using different programs on different drives. Check each time to see if the disks are remaining stable. If not, then your problem is probably with writing to the disks. Does it happen to each type of drive? Only to the XT-IDE?

I am having a hard time on mobile trying to quote properly haha.

The Phoenix BIOS came with the machine. Since this came from commercial use I'm assuming the business had a need for it. Though I hadn't considered if something had happened and corrupted the original BIOS chips. Unfortunate I don't have a way to contact the original business owners for history on the machine. I also have a type 2 motherboard so it's kind of that weird middle one where it can support a lot but needs help. I would prefer to stay away from OEM as well because XT-IDE compatability issues. Plus ROM setup is a nice plus to have as well.

After work I'll follow your suggestion and write some files and check the disk. If that goes well I'll step up to some utilities and copy my games back over to the drive.

I technically only have the compact flash on the XT-IDE. Original 40 MB MFM drive actually sounds great (I think - haven't spent a lot of time around them). But it didn't read any data and I would get a fixed disk error at boot. I couldn't really do anything to analyze the drive from my DOS 3.3 floppy I initially used. I unplugged the data connection but left power so the PSU draws enough current to work. I could try to reconnect it and see if new tools I have access too can "fix" it.

 

[mdp_mason]

Alright update time! So I ran CHKDSK and wow the errors. Check disk was able to correct them, total damage was 4096 bytes of bad sectors, so not too bad at all. I started with a few text files and checked after each one. Then I copied over some drivers and I installed SIMCITY and ran it. No errors with check disk after. So seems to be holding stable now. I copied Centurion over as well from my 5.25" floppy drive and again no errors.

Tried to then go back and do a full boot with loading the drivers and it hung again. I noticed the PC DOS Shell started to work (no idea it was a GUI, I will likely not use too much) but I think that was due to me properly adding the SHELL line for command.com in my config.sys. Trying my RAM cards EMM driver hung the system but CTRL ALT DEL was able to restart. For HIMEM and SETVER both hung the system and I was not able to reboot without a power cycle. Bypassed the problem lines and went back into DOS, no errors on the disk again after trying to load any of the drivers.

I would say DOS and the hard drive (for now) are stable. Is there potential HIMEM and SETVER were on those bad sectors before CHKDSK was run? I am wondering if that may explain why they can't load. I might try and copy over a fresh version of them from the install floppy just to see if that was the issue. Also in case it is my install media I have DOS 6.22 on the way so I can at least take that variable out of the equation.

 

[modem7]

When software such as CHKDSK , Norton Disk Doctor, and the like, inform that they fixed errors, one needs to take that information 'with a grain of salt.'
For example, read the text in the 'Cross-linked files' diagram at [here].

 

[mdp_mason]

When software such as CHKDSK , Norton Disk Doctor, and the like, inform that they fixed errors, one needs to take that information 'with a grain of salt.'
For example, read the text in the 'Cross-linked files' diagram at [here].

That is very informative, thank you! I still have two cross linked files on the drive, DATAMON.EXE and my autoexec in root. When I ran CHKDSK the first time the output went so fast I missed the pause button. But the cross links and allocation errors were pretty extensive in the DOS directory. I will assume files have been damaged and go forward with my plan to copy fresh files from my floppies. I will start with SETVER since it only loads into memory and doesn't need to allocate or control anything like HIMEM.

 

[mdp_mason]

That is very informative, thank you! I still have two cross linked files on the drive, DATAMON.EXE and my autoexec in root. When I ran CHKDSK the first time the output went so fast I missed the pause button. But the cross links and allocation errors were pretty extensive in the DOS directory. I will assume files have been damaged and go forward with my plan to copy fresh files from my floppies. I will start with SETVER since it only loads into memory and doesn't need to allocate or control anything like HIMEM.

Replacing the files from the floppy did not help them load. I noticed though I can reboot from a hung system without a power cycle now. May be coincidental though.