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iSCSI on Windows 98 ? [Microsoft iSCSI Software Initiator 1.x versions]

ardent-blue

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Jan 2, 2015
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Folks, I love ramming my head into the wall because it feels so good when I stop... Does Win98 support iSCSI? Were any PCI iSCSI HBA released with W98 support [maybe an M$ iSCSI Software Initiator included] ? Does iSCSI Bridging eliminate the need for an initiator?

Things do not look promising, thought there was a chance I could bypass the lack of Fast Ethernet for MCA with an iSCSI Bridge, but it seems that I am... Without A Kiss... again.

Driver Version iSCSI Initiator Version
5.2.3790.198 version 1.0
5.2.3790.205 version 1.01
5.2.3790.215 version 1.02
5.2.3790.218 version 1.03
5.2.3790.243 version 1.04
5.2.3790.244 version 1.04a
5.2.3790.277 version 1.05
5.2.3790.279 version 1.05a
5.2.3790.302 version 1.06
 
I had a bit of a look around once, and from my notes here most things I found suggest there was never Windows 98 support in Microsoft iSCSI Initiator 1.x. I suspect the people who suggested that there was might have been misremembering.

I'm not really sure what iSCSI bridging means exactly, or at least I think it's a bit of a vague term. I guess for example may be able to get or make a bridge from iSCSI to parallel SCSI, and then you wouldn't need an iSCSI initiator in your Windows 98 machine, but you'd need a SCSI Host Bus Adapter operating in initiator (i.e. normal) mode instead.

I might be a bit confused about what you're looking for though as I think you're asking about a PCI iSCSI HBA to make up for the lack of an MCA Fast Ethernet adapter - what exactly is it you're hoping to connect to what? To be honest even if I understood I might not be able to help much, but I have looked into some of these sorts of things before.

If I had time I'd like to write ATA over Ethernet drivers for DOS and Windows 9x, but I'd need a lot of time since I've never written drivers for either before! At least for DOS now there's mbbrutman's mTCP NetDrive. One should be able to fairly easily make an iSCSI to mTCP NetDrive bridge now.
 
iSCSI was not for the consumer market. As for Windows, only NT-based systems were ever supported. So no, you can not use it with Windows 98.

I might be a bit confused about what you're looking for though as I think you're asking about a PCI iSCSI HBA to make up for the lack of an MCA Fast Ethernet adapter - what exactly is it you're hoping to connect to what?
iSCSI is SCSI over Ethernet. It's not for having a LAN connection, but to add physical storage which the system sees just as any internal hard disk drive.
 
Folks, I love ramming my head into the wall because it feels so good when I stop... Does Win98 support iSCSI? Were any PCI iSCSI HBA released with W98 support [maybe an M$ iSCSI Software Initiator included] ? Does iSCSI Bridging eliminate the need for an initiator?

Things do not look promising, thought there was a chance I could bypass the lack of Fast Ethernet for MCA with an iSCSI Bridge, but it seems that I am... Without A Kiss... again.

Driver Version iSCSI Initiator Version
5.2.3790.198 version 1.0
5.2.3790.205 version 1.01
5.2.3790.215 version 1.02
5.2.3790.218 version 1.03
5.2.3790.243 version 1.04
5.2.3790.244 version 1.04a
5.2.3790.277 version 1.05
5.2.3790.279 version 1.05a
5.2.3790.302 version 1.06
Hello !

Did you find any iSCSI initiator version 1.0x ? I had no success until now. I've been searching for it since few years ago. :(
The oldest version I have here is 2.08.
If you have an oldest ( any 1.0x fits ) please share it with me on a "GoogleDrive", "OneDrive' or any download link, please. israelgino@outlook.com

I would like to check if the versions 1.0x could work with Windows NT 4.0 Server in order to build a Microsoft Failover Cluster.
I had success building it for Windows Server 2000 ( but using the initiator 2.08 ). worked nicely.

Thank a lot !

_w2000_cluster.jpg
 
I had a bit of a look around once, and from my notes here most things I found suggest there was never Windows 98 support in Microsoft iSCSI Initiator 1.x. I suspect the people who suggested that there was might have been misremembering.

I'm not really sure what iSCSI bridging means exactly, or at least I think it's a bit of a vague term. I guess for example may be able to get or make a bridge from iSCSI to parallel SCSI, and then you wouldn't need an iSCSI initiator in your Windows 98 machine, but you'd need a SCSI Host Bus Adapter operating in initiator (i.e. normal) mode instead.

I might be a bit confused about what you're looking for though as I think you're asking about a PCI iSCSI HBA to make up for the lack of an MCA Fast Ethernet adapter - what exactly is it you're hoping to connect to what? To be honest even if I understood I might not be able to help much, but I have looked into some of these sorts of things before.

If I had time I'd like to write ATA over Ethernet drivers for DOS and Windows 9x, but I'd need a lot of time since I've never written drivers for either before! At least for DOS now there's mbbrutman's mTCP NetDrive. One should be able to fairly easily make an iSCSI to mTCP NetDrive bridge now.
Hello !
Did you have time to write the ATA overEthernet drivers for MS-DOS and Windows 9x ?
By the way, is there a chance you have ther any Microsoft iSCSI Initiator installation file version 1.0x ? Any of them fits for me.
I'm trying to build a Windows NT 4.0 Server Failover Cluster scenario here. But, none of 2.0x iSCSI initiator can be installed on Windows NT 4.0. It works only on Windows 2000 Server.
I've been searching for 1.0x for years and no success to find any available installation for 1.0x. :cry:.
If you have it, please share it with me! I appreciate a lot.
Thanks !
 
iSCSI is SCSI over Ethernet. It's not for having a LAN connection, but to add physical storage which the system sees just as any internal hard disk drive.
I thought it was over IP. In any case, I think I have a reasonable idea of what iSCSI is after having used it before, but I'm still not sure what @ardent-blue's goal is.

Did you have time to write the ATA overEthernet drivers for MS-DOS and Windows 9x ?
In the last 15 hours? No :LOL: Maybe if you ask in a few years I'll have tried and given up because it was too hard, but right now I'm nowhere near having the time to even try, I'm afraid.

By the way, is there a chance you have ther any Microsoft iSCSI Initiator installation file version 1.0x ? Any of them fits for me.
I'm not sure that I ever found any. I'd suggest looking at old Microsoft TechNet CDs if you don't get any more useful responses. Good luck with your project!
 
I would like to check if the versions 1.0x could work with Windows NT 4.0 Server in order to build a Microsoft Failover Cluster.
It does not. Windows 2000 is the oldest version that is supported for iSCSI.
 
ATA over Ethernet is truly Ethernet only - there is no way to run it over anything else. iSCSI runs over TCP/IP. Ethernet may be the most common transport, but it is not a requirement.

In the DOS world EtherDFS and EtherFlop are Ethernet only, while mTCP NetDrive is more like iSCSI - it's best over Ethernet but it only requires TCP/IP. (Early on somebody used it on a laptop over serial.)
 
The question still hanging in the air is what exactly the OP wants to do; that mention of MCA Fast Internet makes me wonder if the goal here was actually to try to use “iSCSI” to bridge an IP network to an old PS/2 by connecting it to a newer machine’s SCSI host adapter? That’s an interesting idea, which has *kind* of been done (I vaguely recall there being some kind of standard for encapsulating IP traffic onto fiber channel?), but definitely not what “iSCSI” is for.
 
The question still hanging in the air is what exactly the OP wants to do; that mention of MCA Fast Internet makes me wonder if the goal here was actually to try to use “iSCSI” to bridge an IP network to an old PS/2 by connecting it to a newer machine’s SCSI host adapter? That’s an interesting idea, which has *kind* of been done (I vaguely recall there being some kind of standard for encapsulating IP traffic onto fiber channel?), but definitely not what “iSCSI” is for.
Tell me what I want to do... please? ...

There are three Holy Grails in my humble opinion:
Fast Ethernet level of internet access
Browser that runs on 9x/NT that handles or gracefully fails when surfing the net
Multi-MB video in the 1440x900 resolution

The 9-K MCA-PCI FE card has been successfully probulated and an ADF created. Tests show 6-8 MB/s. -BUT- it was designed for RS/6000, which compared to PS/2s, has gobs of unused processor power and probably has a higher MCA bus to CPU bandwidth. So if you don't have a Pentium and 32-bit MCA, it is gonna suck. Plus, I'm not sure if the 9-K uses 8KB of NVRAM -or- if it is register compatible with the 70/80.

My recent slogging through the past turned up the existence of the AMD "TAXI" chipset and the Cypress "HOTlink" serializer. The implementations are dated, but interesting. Serialize SCSI, turbo-diddle it into a USB bit stream, fire it over to an FTDI dongle, then into a current OS?

SCSI can be used as a communications bus, Adaptec was thinking ahead. The early MACs used Ethernet over SCSI, but they had the 3MB or so transfer rate.

When 10Mbit ethernet came out, it was faster. But now we got Fast/Wide SCSI available, perhaps we can do much better?

About 15 years ago, I came across a message on the newsgroups, I think it was a Kodak related NG. The OP used a direct SCSI-to-SCSI connection to transfer really big [for the day] files between Model 8580s.

Parallan made an external iPBridge, where the unit hooks up to the SCSI port, does whatever to the SCSI datastream, then fires iSCSI out over the integrated 10/100 Ethernet. Model 1550D? Hence my interest in the M$ Initiator...
 
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I am not going to search, but I understand its about twice as fast as 10 Meg adaptors.
Exactly. BUT it requires an external, powered switch. A lot of things need a powered switch or router to do the translation. I have a su-weet 3com CoreBuilder 3500, it can do wire speed FDDI to FE. But it's about 2/3rds the size of a Model 90, just as heavy, and needs to be powered on in order to work.
 
Tell me what I want to do... please? ...

There are three Holy Grails in my humble opinion:
Fast Ethernet level of internet access
Browser that runs on 9x/NT that handles or gracefully fails when surfing the net
Multi-MB video in the 1440x900 resolution

... I guess I'm still a little confused about the system architecture here? It sounds like you're sitting there looking at a PS/2 (model?) that has a SCSI controller that you're hoping to somehow bridge to the Internet via the SCSI port instead of ethernet because in theory at least your SCSI port might be faster than the 1MB/s-ish you can get out of plain 10Mbit Ethernet, and that will let you surf the internet better?

SCSI can be used as a communications bus, Adaptec was thinking ahead. The early MACs used Ethernet over SCSI, but they had the 3MB or so transfer rate.

When 10Mbit ethernet came out, it was faster. But now we got Fast/Wide SCSI available, perhaps we can do much better?

Sure, you can drive pretty much whatever you want over SCSI; as you note yourself Ethernet adapters over SCSI were in fact a thing. But that doesn't mean that an iSCSI bridge is the same thing as a SCSI over Ethernet adapter.

Parallan made an external iPBridge, where the unit hooks up to the SCSI port, does whatever to the SCSI datastream, then fires iSCSI out over the integrated 10/100 Ethernet. Model 1550D? Hence my interest in the M$ Initiator...

These things? (ATTO made similar devices.) So... sure, these exist, but I'm very unclear on how they fit into the plan of making a PS/2 surf the web faster. These devices are designed to plug into a chain of SCSI storage devices in place of a computer host adapter and expose the storage devices behind it as LUNs on a single iSCSI target or a separately named iSCSI targets per device (per the ATTO manual), allowing commands to be sent to these devices from computers out there on the ethernet LAN via the iSCSI initiator software. Now, sure, there's nothing preventing you in theory at least from connecting one of these devices to a computer with a SCSI host adapter in it and advertising that SCSI ID as an iSCSI target, but... remember, all the bridge is capable of is taking SCSI traffic from the SCSI wire, stuffing it into an Ethernet packet, and slapping a header on the outside of it that'll route it to an iSCSI initiator that the bridge thinks will want it. Which means that if you try writing some kind of TCP/IP stack for the computer sitting on the SCSI chain that tried to use the bridge as if it were a SCSI Ethernet adapter that isn't going to work, because the bridge only knows how to send that traffic to an initiator. It's not going to "magically" turn SCSI traffic into ethernet packets that can independently be routed to other ethernet destinations, nor is it going to proxy arp or whatever for incoming IP traffic destined for your PC behind it; the only incoming packets it'll be listening for are iSCSI packets.

So... sure, this still isn't an absolute deal killer: you could take your PS/2, put it behind the hardware bridge, write some kind of TCP stack that can encapsulate data packets into SCSI transactions, and then run an initiator on a more modern computer somewhere else on the network that can initiate the connection to the PS/2's advertised iSCSI LUN and from that point do the work of bridging the iSCSI-encapsulated IP packets onto the Ethernet network. (IE, traffic will essentially be U-turning through this companion machine.) It's definitely technically... possible. But if this is what you want you're still not going to be needing iSCSI initiator software for the PS/2, you'll need that SCSI-bridge TCP stack/network driver. Not sure where you're going to find that off the shelf.

(FWIW, if you're going to need a separate computer to do the SCSI bridging anyway, maybe forget the iSCSI bridge and just slap a parallel SCSI host adapter with reassignable addressing in that computer? The iSCSI bridge doesn't accomplish much of anything other than letting you put the PS/2 farther from its bridge?)

Anyway. Honestly, for any PS/2 ever made I'd wager a 10baseT ethernet card is going to be the least of your roadblocks in trying to make the thing perform meaningfully well on the modern Internet.
 
Backing up, I'm curious what has you thinking a 10Mb ethernet card is too slow for internet browsing?

10Mb ethernet may seem laughably slow if you have a gigabit fiber to your house (which I sure don't yet), but it's certainly not "nothing" even today. (Remember, the world is filled with people still living with older cable and DSL technologies, not to mention mobile network devices dealing with congestion/caps/etc.) 10Mb is generally considered "adequate" for HD video streaming, so I'm wondering what use case are you running into where network bandwidth is actually the limiting factor.
 
I think you need to reset your expectations a little bit. Also be careful about mixing Bytes and bits. (Big B vs. little b.)

A 100Mb/s (bits) Ethernet card has a theoretical limit of about 12MB/sec (bytes). You can't actually get that because of Ethernet framing, IP headers and TCP headers. Especially when using standard 1518 byte Ethernet frames. (1500 bytes of payload, 14 bytes of Ethernet header, 4 bytes of CRC. And that doesn't include the time for the pre-amble bits on the wire.) Jumbo frames would be more efficient.

A P133 with a PCI card can get around 10MB/sec through the card using standard Ethernet frames with a LinkSys LNE100. I've seen a Pentium 4 with a RealTek 8139 based card push 11MB/sec. The P4 is quite a bit faster but you can see it barely helps.

MCA is a good bus. What's the bus clock speed on your machine and the CPU (and clock speed of it) ?
 
The 9-K MCA-PCI FE card has been successfully probulated and an ADF created. Tests show 6-8 MB/s. -BUT- it was designed for RS/6000, which compared to PS/2s, has gobs of unused processor power and probably has a higher MCA bus to CPU bandwidth. So if you don't have a Pentium and 32-bit MCA, it is gonna suck. Plus, I'm not sure if the 9-K uses 8KB of NVRAM -or- if it is register compatible with the 70/80.
If you're concerned about the CPU load of driving an Ethernet card, I suspect you should probably also be concerned about the additional load that would be put on the CPU from having to encapsulate IP or Ethernet (I'm not really sure what level these things operate at) in SCSI, and then pass that through SCSI driver layer(s). I don't really know for sure how that stuff works but I imagine it's just an extra layer of inefficiency.

Exactly. BUT it requires an external, powered switch. A lot of things need a powered switch or router to do the translation.
Are these from that generation of cards that can't handle modern auto-negotiation properly? :(

I've never really had to deal with that problem properly but I wonder if modern, smaller, managed switches might let you turn off auto-negotiation for a given port and thereby get these things working? Perhaps there are lots of threads of research on this topic elsewhere that I just haven't stumbled across yet.

(FWIW, if you're going to need a separate computer to do the SCSI bridging anyway, maybe forget the iSCSI bridge and just slap a parallel SCSI host adapter with reassignable addressing in that computer? The iSCSI bridge doesn't accomplish much of anything other than letting you put the PS/2 farther from its bridge?)
This is the way I'd go, if I was going to try something like this. It might necessitate a larger "tweener" machine as I'm not sure if you can buy parallel SCSI adapters for modern machines, but I imagine the parts are a lot easier to obtain. Then there's the possibility that on the tweener machine you might be able to use https://ipoverscsi.sourceforge.net/ (which probably requires an old Linux kernel and hence an older tweener machine) and only have to write custom software for one end.

Backing up, I'm curious what has you thinking a 10Mb ethernet card is too slow for internet browsing?

10Mb ethernet may seem laughably slow if you have a gigabit fiber to your house (which I sure don't yet), but it's certainly not "nothing" even today. (Remember, the world is filled with people still living with older cable and DSL technologies, not to mention mobile network devices dealing with congestion/caps/etc.) 10Mb is generally considered "adequate" for HD video streaming, so I'm wondering what use case are you running into where network bandwidth is actually the limiting factor.
Good point. Can you read/write a hard drive on a PS/2 at 10Mb/s? I wonder what a PS/2 could even do with 10Mb/s - I presume it can generate and/or sink test data packets at that rate so people can tell what the performance of a network card is, but perhaps if you want to actually display data on the screen it won't be fast enough to do that?
 
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