• Please review our updated Terms and Rules here

"most useful" Apple II+ cards?

I

iz8dwf

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2017
Messages
812
Location
Italy
Hi all,
I've just completed and tested my replacement for the 16K Language Card:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KPIAoO1dTU

Now, what is the next most useful expansion card for a ][+ machine (actually an europlus)?
I'm considering to make a PAL card, a Z80 card, an 80 column (MC6845 based) card, a generic banked RAM expansion and even a disk II controller card if I'm not going to find one cheap for sale in EU.
What everyone thinks is more useful (besides the disk interface that I'm anyway going to either buy or re-produce)?
Also I've seen quite a lot different disk drive interfaces that are not looking like the Apple's one clone, for example a 4 port one from Franklin (afair). Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any schematic for those alternative designs.
The only issue (for me) to design an exact clone of the Apple disk II interface is that I can't currently program the bipolar proms. Does anyone have any alternative schematic for those interfaces?
All suggestions are welcome.
Frank IZ8DWF
 
Last edited:
Thanks George.
I did miss the cheap compatible floppy controller on ebay, that will probably be the best choice.
I thought about converting my europlus to NTSC, I'm really tempted, but I have the bad habit to leave my computers as much as original as I can.
Frank
 
KC9UDX said:
80 column card, one with a lower-case solution.
Click to expand...

I have found the "videoterm" 80 column schematic, I don't know if it has a lowercase solution too.
Any suggestion to what was the "best" or "standard" back in those days? I'm young enough to have only been playing with the IIe in the good old days.
Frank
 
george said:
Cheap for sale in EU:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/264377482610

http://www.ebay.com/itm/264301528803

http://www.ebay.com/itm/254371776483

It is easier to convert your Apple2 to NTSC standard (and the resulting colors will be more authentic) by switching several solder junctions and adding a few passive components if missing on the motherboard and changing the crystal to 14.318 MHz. If you are using CRT you will have less flickering because NTSC framerate is 60 Hz.
Click to expand...

The original Apple2 video output is NTSC anyway. The European version is somewhat crippled to me. As a child I was not pleased by euro clones we had at schools that used to produce only B/W video signal. Anyway NTSC TV sets/monitors were unobtainable those days in my country so RGB cards were a better option. I forgot to mention that to me the Apple Super Serial Card is important these days since it allows easy transfers with the adtpro software.
 
george said:
The original Apple2 video output is NTSC anyway. The European version is somewhat crippled to me. As a child I was not pleased by euro clones we had at schools that used to produce only B/W video signal. Anyway NTSC TV sets/monitors were unobtainable those days in my country so RGB cards were a better option. I forgot to mention that to me the Apple Super Serial Card is important these days since it allows easy transfers with the adtpro software.
Click to expand...

I have two original SSCs with original manual :)
And by the way, I also have a working //c to transfer programs to floppies with ADTpro.
In the good old days, I thought that IIe were monochrome, since I've never seen one with a color card. I agree that the euro versions might seem crippled, but it's not super difficult to find or make a color (PAL, RGB, whatever) card.
Frank
 
iz8dwf said:
I have found the "videoterm" 80 column schematic, I don't know if it has a lowercase solution too.
Any suggestion to what was the "best" or "standard" back in those days? I'm young enough to have only been playing with the IIe in the good old days.
Frank
Click to expand...

Not sure. I've seen probably half a dozen different ones.
 
iz8dwf said:
I have two original SSCs with original manual :)
And by the way, I also have a working //c to transfer programs to floppies with ADTpro.
In the good old days, I thought that IIe were monochrome, since I've never seen one with a color card. I agree that the euro versions might seem crippled, but it's not super difficult to find or make a color (PAL, RGB, whatever) card.
Frank
Click to expand...
Don't tell me that your //c is also euro version ;). It is much more difficult to convert //e or //c to NTSC since this usually involves a replacement of IOU. As a pupil I had been using euro apple2 clones for some 5 years until on a foreign exhibition I had a chance to see an authentic real Apple //c with original color monitor which impressed me then. Nowadays I don't have a //c and I don't plan to buy one since it has no expansion capabilities and I don't like it. Unlike you I never thought that Apple2 was monochrome because I knew that even its BASIC included color operators. Don't underestimate the RGB cards. There are a lot of differences in the quality of the image they output. I've tried the majority of commercial ones and I like the one that was not designed by me and its vintage design still amazes me because of its very clever engineering. Here is one example of what it outputs on a PC unmodified CGA CRT monitor.
 

Attachments

  • pic1.jpg
    pic1.jpg
    90.3 KB · Views: 1
  • pic3.jpg
    pic3.jpg
    83.3 KB · Views: 1
  • pic2.jpg
    pic2.jpg
    91.8 KB · Views: 1
Well, of course my //c is the euro version. I have never seen colors out of it :) But it was free, so I don't complain.
I could easily make a PAL adapter on the video port, but I've never really needed colors so far. Apple IIe was in my school and that was mostly for programming. At home I had a VIC-20 first then a C64, and these had colors :)
What RGB card do you recommend for the ][ anyway?
Frank
 
iz8dwf said:
Well, of course my //c is the euro version. I have never seen colors out of it :) But it was free, so I don't complain.
I could easily make a PAL adapter on the video port, but I've never really needed colors so far. Apple IIe was in my school and that was mostly for programming. At home I had a VIC-20 first then a C64, and these had colors :)
What RGB card do you recommend for the ][ anyway?
Frank
Click to expand...
Ciao. Nowadays I do recommend NTSC monitor because NTSC TVs are scrapped and almost free and are still widespread. I doubt you can make PAL color adapter "easily" on the videoport. The level of complexity would be at least that of the Apple2 PAL card which schematic is published in the literature. I have //e PAL clones and original Apple //e PAL version and I can say I am not impressed by their PAL output. Generally PAL has twice lower color resolution than NTSC as far as I remember and is not good for computer generated images.
 
Last edited:
george said:
Ciao. These days I do recommend NTSC monitor because NTSC TVs are scrapped and almost free and are still widespread. I doubt you can make PAL color adapter "easily" on the videoport. The level of complexity would be at least that of the Apple2 PAL card which schematic is published in the literature. I have //e PAL clones and original Apple //e PAL version and I can say I am not impressed by their PAL output. Generally PAL has twice lower color resolution than NTSC as far as I remember and is not good for computer generated images.
Click to expand...

That level of complexity is what I call easy. After all, I'm an electronic engineer, graduated when university was an harder place to live than today's one :)
And well, PAL was invented precisely because NTSC color rendition was let's say "imperfect". However, correct PAL signals need the proper PAL monitors/TVs. I'm not sure a NTSC C64 for example would have better colors than a PAL C64 (since I only have seen PAL ones in my life).
It only seems to me that Apple cheated with the NTSC color signal in the first place and it wasn't possible to make the more complex PAL color modulation with the same tricks. European versions should have been sold with the additional PAL card as a free option if they really thought it was absolutely vital to have a color output, but at least in Italy, the Apple II was never famous to be a game machine (it was way too expensive for anything at the typical homes). Apple II were machine found in offices, schools and small business. In the '80s I have seen lots of them (and even asked to make some programs for it) and I have never seen one connected to a color monitor.
Frank
 
I am an engineer too. If I were you I would have called that "easy" when I had successfully built a working prototype. Do you presently FULLY understand how this PAL card schematics works even being an engineer yourself? I doubt it. Yes, to repeat someone else's published schematic is usually easy. But one don't have to be an engineer to do that. NTSC has better vertical color resolution but its color is vulnerable to distortions and therefore NTSC TV sets have "hue" controls. That was corrected in PAL via it's alternating phase and vector summing from two consecutive scan lines (previous line is memorized in a 64 uS delay line in decoders).

Here is wiki more popular explanation concerning PAL's resolution...

The name "Phase Alternating Line" describes the way that the phase of part of the colour information on the video signal is reversed with each line, which automatically corrects phase errors in the transmission of the signal by cancelling them out, at the expense of vertical frame colour resolution.
Click to expand...

A minor drawback is that the vertical colour resolution is poorer than the NTSC system's, but since the human eye also has a colour resolution that is much lower than its brightness resolution, this effect is not visible.
Click to expand...

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL)

I dare say PAL artifacts are quite visible on computer generated screens especially when these screens are as usually watched at much shorter distances compared to TV broadcasts. In addition many NTSC artifacts were exploited by Apple2 programmers to realize some visual effects of their taste which are not displayed as intended with PAL.
 
Last edited:
You're missing my point: to me an Apple II of any kind has been always been a monochrome machine. And yes, I do know quite a bit on how PAL works (having for example fully restored a Philips PM-5508 ).
We also can't debate much if PAL or NTSC look better as I've really never seen a NTSC output computer and having one isn't on my list at the moment. There're probably different artifacts and programmers have been known for exploiting every one they could.
Frank
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top