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PET 2001 with vertical video shake

DrAM19

Experienced Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2021
Messages
76
Location
Near Washington, D.C., USA
Hello All,

I'm in the middle of an extensive repair of a PET 2001. Most all of it is fixed up, but I wanted a double-check on the last item to fix.

The video is sometimes stable, especially when first powered on. However, I am getting frequent vertical video shake, and on occasion the video goes out fully. I was considering recapping the video board, or at least C9, C12, C13, and C15 since they are on the vertical drive circuit.

Does anyone have experience with this, or an opinion on recapping (all 11 electrolytics vs just those 4 mentioned)?

Thanks!!
 
The first thing is to check the VERTICAL DRIVE signal from the logic board to the monitor board with an oscilloscope. First when the PET is working normally (to see what the signal should look like) and then with the video unstable.

If the VERTICAL DRIVE signal is the same - then the problem is in the monitor. If it is different- then the problem is on the logic board.

It could be capacitors, but my guess would be a bad solder joint on a connector first - possibly the connector carrying the signals from the logic board to the monitor. Check the solder joints on the connectors at both ends of the interconnecting cable.

Dave
 
There are a couple of reasons this vertical shake can happen.

The reason it happens is that the vertical scan amplifier in the PET VDU has positive feedback around it. This improves the vertical scan linearity, but it is just below self oscillation. So if there is any disturbance in the vertical drive pulse, it causes the scan to bounce up and down vertically.

There are two causes:

One is that there is ripple in the 5V power supply. This happens when the large main filter cap has lost capacity, The voltage between charging peaks from thre rectifier, troughs down too low, so that ripple appears at the output of the 5V regulators. This means you need to replace the main filter capacitor, like the one attached.

Yet there is another cause, If the character generator (U10nfrom memory) has been replaced with a UVeprom, it can also do it unless, the pin that connects to /INIT, gets connected to +5V
 

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Note that this is a PET 2001 - and I believe pin 21 of the 2316B character generator ROM on this machine is connected directly to +5V.

There is also a 6540 character generator ROM variant as well.

Dave
 
Thanks for the thoughts, daver and hugo.

This PET has 2316 ROMs. I have not replaced the chargen ROM with an EPROM.

I was able to test the logic board in a different PET 2001 and there was no ripple, so I feel good about the logic board. But I can scope the vertical drive anyway, its a free test.

I'll scope the 5v output at the voltage regulators and see if its smooth.

And I will check/reflow both connectors, from the logic board to the video board.

Updates to follow.
 
If it has the TIP29/TIP30 output pair - replacing those fixes it more often than not, if it's a random and worsening vertical bounce - failing that, go for the 470uF and/or 2R2 between the scan coil and ground...

Let us know how it goes on here, please!
 
Hi - They will likely test OK and look fine, from past experience - the fault always looks like a failing cap... but it's a trap, lol
 
OK, here is what I know so far:

the regulated 5v has a bit of wobble to it, but it does not appear to change when the screen wobble starts up. scope images of the 5v and just the AC coupling of the 5v.
IMG_20230418_145016027_HDR - Copy.jpg

The VERTICAL DRIVE signal, taken at CR8, looks stable too. It does not change when the wobble starts up.
IMG_20230418_142645616 - Copy.jpg

I checked the waveform at Q9 since it had a reference form in the schematic on zimmers (video-1.gif). It matches and does not change when the wobble starts up.
IMG_20230418_143628990 - Copy.jpg

Using my multimeter, I did some measurements at Q9 and Q10 in-circuit with the power off. I feel like there might be an issue with the EB measurement on Q9, but the 270 ohm R26 makes me unsure.
Q9 Q10
EB .5v .54v
BE .75v OL

Later tonight when I get my soldering iron out to reflow the pin headers for the cable connecting the logic board and video board, I might pull the emitter leg on Q9 (or a leg on R26) out and remeasure.

One other thing I noticed is that the screen wobble happens more often if I power the machine on and let it run, power it off, and then very shortly thereafter power it back on again.
 
Where on Q9 have you measured?

There is a 6, 7 and 14. All of them look similar.

If 7 is fine, we have a problem...

Dave
 
Point 6 is the base of transistor Q10, so I would measure that also.

If you have a look at waveform 7 you 'should' observe your problem...

Dave
 
Hi Dave,

Here is TP6. The AC coupling looks good, but my scope was having a hard time triggering when DC coupling.
IMG_20230418_165114563_HDR - Copy.jpg

TP7 DC coupling, certainly a problem here.
IMG_20230418_165225548_HDR - Copy.jpg

Two things I need to gather/understand. First, what is TP7 telling me. I see the reference waveform, should look like TP6 and TP14 but clearly does not. A failure in Q9, not switching soon enough?

And second, what did you see that made you say I should check TP7 specifically? I was planning to check 5, 6, and 7 this afternoon anyway. I did 6 and 7 really fast just now because you seemed to realize something.
 

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The VDU has its own 12V regulator and generally the output of that is fine.

The cases of the wobble I have seen were the result of small phase changes in the vertical drive signal. To get that it only takes a small amount of ripple to break through the 5V regulators if that main filter capacitor is down on uF value.

There is a quick test you can do to eliminate it, if you have a variac. When the vertical bounce appears, wind up the line voltage by 10 to 15% and see the wobble vanishes.

The 23,000uF cap is difficult to test otherwise as it is outside the range of most capcitance meters and when failing its ESR can still read very low.
 
...That VDU of yours looks like a very early type , probably with the 9VALP4 (white phosphor) CRT and the early yoke and the early flyback transformer combination which were from a portable TV set.

I wouldn't blame the vertical output transistor pair off the bat. The circuit design itself is just at a threshold below oscillation because of the positive feedback around this scan amplifier, It only takes a very small disturbance in the vertical drive pulse to cause the bouncing, though it is worth checking the R & C's in the feedback pathway. However I would remain suspicious of the power supply (computer) first. And the aged main filter cap.

In the case where the /INIT line is a problem (not yours) the reason a similar effect occurs with a UVeprom, is the /INIT line gets pulled down to close to a logic threshold level and it because more vulnerable to power supply disturbances, this causes phase errors in the V driver pulse, giving a similar effect.

Once you confirmed say that raising the line supply voltage had no effect and vert drive pulse was super amplitude and phase stable then it could be worth investigating the VDU +12v power supply and vertical scan stages.
 
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Point 7 is the final drive to the scan coils. This should be a 12V or so signal.

No signal here at all means no vertical deflection on the CRT screen, so I don't believe there is not a signal here...

As this is the final drive to the Y scan coils, you should be able to see your disturbances. You then work backwards...

Dave
 
Point 7 is the final drive to the scan coils. This should be a 12V or so signal.

No signal here at all means no vertical deflection on the CRT screen, so I don't believe there is not a signal here...

As this is the final drive to the Y scan coils, you should be able to see your disturbances. You then work backwards...

Dave
Dave, in this case though, because the disturbance is inside the feedback loop, it will appear everywhere in the vertical scan amplifier stages, and that will also alter the input conditions a little too, the feedback is passed directly to the base of the input transistor, making it look as though there is a small disturbance on the V drive signal at the input. So tracing the signal back from output to input might be less helpful than usual.

As I recall when my PET was doing this, the phase errors in the V drive signal from the main computer board were not that obvious on the scope. The borderline breakthrough ripple in the 5V regulator outputs, due to the capacitance in the 23,000uF being borderline low, was just enough to fractionally alter the timing in the drive pulse generator counters & logic. The computer otherwise was functioning normally. Lifting the line power voltage to the PET with a Variac would quickly show this was the problem, or eliminate it as a possible cause. If it was not the cause, the next thing I would check is the DC voltage on the /INIT line, to make sure it was a good logic high around 4V and not sitting somewhere around 1.5 to 2V to eliminate that.

One other method would be to replace the V drive signal to the the VDU with one from a pulse generator circuit that produced the correct frequency and correct amplitude and duty cycle of the original pulse. That could be a little time consuming to set up, but it would isolate the problem to either inside or outside of the VDU. Or obviously try the VDU on another PET computer if there was one available.

I'm still suspicious that the main 23,000uF filter cap is not ruled out yet.

Also, in the VDU, I think if the capacitor C15 was failing and going low capacitance and or high ESR, the scan height would obviously drop and the + feedback would reduce. Though if R32 the 2,2R current sensing resistor was going a little high, the +FB would increase, so worth checking that.

But I'm thinking that the problem is less likely in the VDU itself, the reason being that this oscillatory behaviour is intrinsic to this VDU and it does not take much of a vertical drive signal error to set it off.
 
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No signal here at all means no vertical deflection on the CRT screen, so I don't believe there is not a signal here...
I must have messed up then. I went to the collector pin of Q9.

This time I went to the right side of R29. The signal looks OK. I'm not sure about that slight rise before it tapers off.
IMG_20230418_205649237_HDR - Copy.jpg

Hugo, I do not have a variac, I really need to get one. I might have to just pick up a new cap to try. Any opinions on a good variac?

I think if the capacitor C15 was failing and going low capacitance and or high ESR, the scan height would obviously drop and the + feedback would reduce.
Its interesting you said that. I thought the vertical position of the text was low, but blamed the vertical size pot and adjusted it. Luckily I had a picture before I did that. The text just seemed too small.
IMG_20230417_213156737 - Copy.jpg

I do not have access to the other working PET right now, it'll be a while before I do again.
 
And just now, I was checking TP 7 at R29 again, turned it on and got the same signal as above. But the screen was blank! And I was looking at the scope and screen next to each other when the picture came back. No visible change to the vdrive waveform. A poor solder joint is looking more likely now.

Because of this I looed at the video in, and I noticed that when trying to probe TP1 off CR1, I was really frequently getting a blank screen. When moving my scope, the text returned. Following this, I found that pushing on C16 caused the picture to come and go. I will be resoldering that connection here momentarily.

*Also its only 2K bytes free because of some bad RAM. I'm not installing the 6550s, waiting on an adapter board to cover the 8K so I can protect these 6550s.
 
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