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Quality Difference Between TRS-80 Models?

MrImprovement

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Is there a difference in the build quality between different TRS-80 models?

Is the Model II "sturdier" for instance than the Model III?
 
What to you mean by “quality”? A Model II is larger and quite a lot more complicated than a III; if you picked both of them up and chucked them across the room the II will break into more pieces and probably be harder to put back together. It also technically has more moving parts to go wrong than a III, which is a pretty minimal machine.
 
They're all "trash"; it's right there in the name! :)

More seriously, there are certainly going to be variations in reliability just because of the design itself and what you happen to have attached to it. For example, the Model I with an expansion unit was notorious for problems in the first version of it. And simply because the expansion interface was separate from the Model I and attached with an external cable that the user could get dirty, bump, etc., it was never going to be as reliable as a Model III.

But differences in "build quality" and the like don't necessarily translate into the same differences for an end user, not to mention multiple end users. If you're asking this question in order to help answer a different question, giving us your real question would probably help us help you more.
 
Well is it sturdier, is it more robustly made? I have a Model III , is it just mostly the same parts in a different case with a detachable keyboard?

Is the keyboard design and manufacture of better quality (Asimov supposedly used a Model II to type out over 9 million words, which is at least 45 million keypresses at 5 characters per word)?

Are there defective design decisions, like you see with e.g. certain brands like the Intertec Superbrain where the foam core housing can deteriorate over time (at least that is one explanation for why we don't see many of those around)? I am not talking usual maintenance like capactior/power supply issues .

If it is "same as a Model III but different design" then I should just clean up the III I already have; vs "more substantial, more robust construction" then maybe it is worth looking for a Model II in its own right.

(I am working at putting together a console server from an old Cisco router that has 8 or 16 serial ports and thus I can use anything that has a serial port to telnet to other stuff I have; the plan is to start using some of these old systems for typing a novel I am working on.)
 
Ah, you're asking about the Model III vs. the Model II? Those are two rather different computers, despite sharing the same processor. Regardless of differences in build quality, the Model II has a processor that's twice as fast, has other processing facilities related to speed such as DMA and vectored interrupts, has a full 80-column display, uses 8" diskettes, allows all 64K to be mapped as RAM without third-party modifications, and so on.

Basically, there are two separate lines of Tandy Z80-based systems:
  • Model I, Model III, Model 4, Model 4P.
  • Model II, Model 12, Model 16 (68000-based), Model 16B, Tandy 6000.
Neither line is compatible with or a substitute for machines in the other line.
 
Well I would like to know if there are differences in build quality; however it is very good to know that made some design choices in the II for better quality/speed.
 
If your primary criterion is build quality, can I suggest you get an original IBM PC instead? It's of far higher build quality than any of the TRS-80 Z80 machines.
 
If your primary criterion is build quality, can I suggest you get an original IBM PC instead? It's of far higher build quality than any of the TRS-80 Z80 machines.
Having extensively worked with or owned all of the above, the actual build quality of the Tandy PC's is as good, if not better than most of that era. The IBM PC had the metal case but was vastly more expensive than the Tandy Model 1, III, or 4. The Model II was considered a business oriented PC and a the basic unit with a 8" drive, the additional 3-bay 8" drive unit, along with the Tandy Model II table assembly cost about $5000.00. give or take a few, back in 1982.
 
Well I would like to know if there are differences in build quality; however it is very good to know that made some design choices in the II for better quality/speed.
Having extensively worked with or owned all of the above, the actual build quality of the Tandy PC's is as good, if not better than most of that era. The IBM PC had the metal case but was vastly more expensive than the Tandy Model 1, III, or 4. The Model II was considered a business oriented PC and the basic unit with a 8" drive, the additional 3-bay 8" drive unit, along with the Tandy Model II table assembly, cost about $5000.00 give or take a few back in 1982. You need to consider what your end uses will be. You mentioned a Cisco router but how is that going interface and to what end. Another consideration is software. Keep in mind that you will be dealing with DOS in some flavor or another. With Tandy it's going to be TRSDOS and apps that are more or less specific to Tandy, There are a plethora of them out there. IBM compatible computers offer a wider range of software; i.e. games, business, communications, etc. I have a certain affection for the Tandy 1000SX which will run most any version of IBM DOS. although it is not 100% IBM compatible and requires some quirky cable configurations for printer interfacing. On the other hand, the 1000SX is capable of running virtually any type of 8-bit hard drive configuration including ISA, SCSI, and some micro configurations with no board or BIOS modifications. The bottom line build quality if a minor issue for PC's of that era. Good luck with which ever way you choose.
 
One weakness with the Model I was the expansion interface and the ribbon cable that connected to the main system. That can be fairly flakey.
 
"Build quality" is a really weird criteria for choosing an antique computer. A lot of the most beloved home computers were absolute trash in terms of physical build quality, but people loved them anyway because of what they could do.

Regardless of differences in build quality, the Model II has a processor that's twice as fast, has other processing facilities related to speed such as DMA and vectored interrupts, has a full 80-column display, uses 8" diskettes, allows all 64K to be mapped as RAM without third-party modifications, and so on.

I think you'd agree, but I certainly wouldn't consider anything on this list to be "build quality" issues, these are feature differences which are mostly a reflection of the fact that the base prices of the Model III and the Model II were $699 and $3,450, respectively. When it comes to *physical build quality*, IE, how well the two machines are actually put together and the quality of the parts they're made out of, I actually don't think there's a whole lot of difference between the two. Both machines are plastic clamshells of roughly similar grade material surrounding a collection of metal and plastic brackets holding the internal parts in place. Maybe you could make a case the Model II is "beefier" because the lower half of the clamshell has a sheet metal bracket on the bottom of it to which the other parts (including the also-metal card cage that holds the circuit boards) are anchored, while the Model III depends on the plastic to hold the flimsy metal box (mainly just there for RF shielding) surrounding the motherboard (and the RS-232/disk controller daughterboards) and the floppy drive brackets in place, but I would say that argument is largely counteracted by physics, IE, you kind of need additional metal in the Model II because the sheer mass of some of its parts (like the 8" floppy drive) necessitates it. Conversely the Model III has at least the potential for greater reliability, simply because it's mostly a single-board computer while the Model II is composed of a minimum of four separate cards plugged into a card cage that can suffer from physical alignment and oxidation issues.

In short, these machines are about equal on the durability scale, which is to say that you could probably pick up an IBM 5150 and use it like a hammer to smash either one into bits without doing catastrophic damage to the IBM. But that in and of itself doesn't really say a lot about how good any of these machines are at doing their jobs. The IBM is arguably heavily overbuilt, in large part because IBM's heritage as a "business machine" company dictated the supply chain behind the case parts; this was a computer built by a company famous for producing 40 pound Selectric typewriters that could probably withstand tactical nuclear blasts. The Commodore PET is another thoroughly overbuilt computer; Commodore made typewriters and file cabinets before they got into the calculator business and thus had a lot of experience making things out of heavy gauge folded steel. For them that indestructible steel case was at least in the short term a cheaper option than investing in the equipment to make an injection molded plastic enclosure that would eventually be cheaper after enough units were sold.

Anyway. I feel like this is really missing the point as to why you actually might want either a Model II or a Model III, which are are different computers built for different things. The Model III is essentially a cleaned up and debugged Model I, a machine that was designed in early 1977 to be an inexpensive and friendly introductory computer incorporating as much of the technical innovations that had happened since the MITS Altair came out in 1975 as possible within a very tight budget. If it was specifically targeted at anybody it was at enthusiasts, engineers, and students, not "business" per se. (Although the concept of a "business computer" was still pretty wide open at this point, so if someone wanted to use a Model I to run their company Radio Shack certainly wasn't going to object.) The Model I, due to its price and availability, was hugely successful and ended up penetrating a lot of niches that Tandy hadn't really dreamed of, which is why they designed the Model III to carry on the line. (The Model I had to be discontinued because it emitted massive radio frequency interference, and it also had some significant reliability problems that were hard to solve without a significant redesign. I think there's an argument to be had about some of the exact choices Tandy made in the design of the Model III, but they did succeed on the reliability fixes.)

The Model II, which came out in late 1979 (only a couple years after the Model I, but things were changing fast at the time), is Tandy's clean sheet take on what was becoming the standard "Business Computer" configuration for high-priced S-100 computers, IE, a 64K Z-80 machine with large-capacity disk storage and an 80-column display terminal. A fully fitted out Model II with at least two disk drives (the external disk box was pretty much a must) was around $5,000-$6,000, which was more than twice as expensive as the most completely maxed out configuration you could get of a Model I (or the III). Instead of selling the machine with CP/M (which it can *run*, and many Model II's spent most of their careers as CP/M computers) Radio Shack wrote a version of "TRS-DOS" for it, but to be clear: the Model II (and its descendants, the 12/16/6000 line) is almost completely unrelated to the I/III/4 line. They're different computers intended for different customer needs.

(Granted the distinction gets a little confusing by the time the Model III came out, both because Tandy introduced the Color Computer as their explicit "home computer" and because the Model I, despite its eccentricities, had actually achieved a decent amount of penetration into the small business market. That saddled the Model III with being the awkward middle child that Radio Shack was selling for both home/school use and as an office computer; the 1981 catalog explicitly can't decide if it's a "personal" or "business" computer:

Tandy_81_lineup.png

... but you can bet that if you walked into a Radio Shack in 1981 wearing a suit saying you wanted a computer for your business they'd try to sell you the Model II first. An engineer, teacher, or random schmo who heard about these new computer gizmos and wanted in would get steered at the Model III.)

the plan is to start using some of these old systems for typing a novel I am working on

If you want to run the word processor on the old computer itself there are very good word processors available for both the Model III and the Model II; the Model III's 64x16 screen is sometimes picked on because, well, it's not 80 column, but it's actually perfectly fine for writing a novel on. (The old standard for typewritten pages was a 10 characters per inch font with 1" margins, which if you do the math is a maximum of 65 characters per line. So the Model III is basically just fine for displaying that without horizontal scrolling.) It's a far, far better format for word processing than the 40x25 of most "home computers". A big advantage of the Model III compared to the Model II for this specifically is the Model III is silent; it has no fan and only makes noise when the disks are accessed. The Model II has a loud case fan and the 8" floppy drive runs constantly.

On the other hand, if you just want a terminal to use a text editor across a serial link it's a no brainer, the Model II's 80x24 display is going to be more usable with modern software. But it's also massive overkill. If a terminal is what you want buy a terminal. The Radio Shack DT-1 uses the same case as the Model III/4 and emulates several other terminal brands, if it's the look of a Radio Shack computer you're after..

If when you're not writing your novel you want to use the computer for anything fun it's no contest, the Model III wins hands down. The TRS-80 Model I and III had a huge library of software covering just about any interest you can think of, including a ton of remarkably fun considering-the-limitations-of-the-hardware video games, and their relatively accessible expansion busses made them popular choices for experimenters, hackers, and hobbyists. The Model II is a big boring business computer. You can play Zork on it, and that's about it.
 
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"Build quality" is a really weird criteria for choosing an antique computer.
Yup, that was the point I was trying to make when I suggested an original IBM PC. If you're not terribly concerned about what software the machine can run, look for any random thing built with a lot of metal and screws, and maybe evaluate by weight.

...which is to say that you could probably pick up an IBM 5150 and use it like a hammer to smash either one into bits without doing catastrophic damage to the IBM. But that in and of itself doesn't really say a lot about how good any of these machines are at doing their jobs.
Well, if the job of the IBM PC is to smash other computers (and arguably, in a sense, it was, if not literally) then it says a lot about how good these machines are at doing their jobs. :)

If you want to run the word processor on the old computer itself there are very good word processors available for both the Model III and the Model II; the Model III's 64x16 screen is sometimes picked on because, well, it's not 80 column, but it's actually perfectly fine for writing a novel on. (The old standard for typewritten pages was a 10 characters per inch font with 1" margins, which if you do the math is a maximum of 65 characters per line. So the Model III is basically just fine for displaying that without horizontal scrolling.) It's a far, far better format for word processing than the 40x25 of most "home computers".
I'd somehow missed the bit about writing a novel on it. But your discussion of screen widths reminds me: whether 40x24 is any worse than 64x16 is much more determined by the software you're using than the screen format itself, given that both show approximately the same number of characters (960 vs. 1024). If you're using a "semi-WYSIWYG" system that displays line breaks as they will be printed, the wider screen is likely better. If you're using a system that is non-WYSIWG and uses troff-like directives that stand alone on lines, having the extra eight lines on the screen is going to be more valuable than having more columns. And of course there are various word processing systems in between.

But the bigger thing, I suspect, will be how well the system handles lower case. Can it print lower case? Does it have a working shift key? It was common for computers designed in the 1970s to have neither of these. Not that you can't work without them: my mother wrote an entire book in Apple Writer on an Apple II that had neither lower case display (displaying inverse for upper case instead) nor a working shift key. But you probably want to be aware of what you're getting into when looking at such things.

If you're going to use the machine to write a novel, I would definitely start by looking at word processors, rather than particular machines, with an eye not only to your preference in UI but also to how you're going to get the data off the old computer and on to a more modern one.
 
But the bigger thing, I suspect, will be how well the system handles lower case. Can it print lower case? Does it have a working shift key? It was common for computers designed in the 1970s to have neither of these.

The Model I had some problems in this area (resolved by a fix that cost about six dollars in parts), but the Model III is perfectly fine. Only significant complaint is it doesn’t have a dedicated shift lock key, instead using shift-0 to toggle.

If you're using a "semi-WYSIWYG" system that displays line breaks as they will be printed, the wider screen is likely better. If you're using a system that is non-WYSIWG and uses troff-like directives that stand alone on lines, having the extra eight lines on the screen is going to be more valuable than having more columns.

Most writers at the time ranked as-wysiwyg-as-possible as a plus. Further I would argue that it’s just generally a more natural choice for casual fiction writing to be able to see more of a sentence unbroken on a line. I actually used to do some casual writing using SuperScripsit on a Model I, and I hardly noticed a difference in “feel” between it and a similar grade DOS word processor. (SuperScriptsit is a remarkably good word processor; file size is limited by disk, not memory, and it even had an integrated spell checker available.) Having used both I’d say there’s no comparison between 64 and 40 columns when it comes to usability for this application.
 
If when you're not writing your novel you want to use the computer for anything fun it's no contest, the Model III wins hands down. The TRS-80 Model I and III had a huge library of software covering just about any interest you can think of, including a ton of remarkably fun considering-the-limitations-of-the-hardware video games, and their relatively accessible expansion busses made them popular choices for experimenters, hackers, and hobbyists. The Model II is a big boring business computer. You can play Zork on it, and that's about it.
I really do appreciate the in-depth response! Thank you!
 
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