ST-225 configuration in AT 5170

[Pekopome]

Hey guys, I finally got at ST-225 for my IBM 5170 (thanks johnorun) It spins up fine but when I boot from A: with DOS 5 the computer wont recognize the hard drive. I guess the BIOS isn't configured to handle a hard drive. Since I don't have the AT Setup disk, I tried to program the BIOS in Basic to handle the type 2 hard drive using GSETUP_BASIC without any luck.

Also there is some jumper pins on the disk controller card (the original IBM that came with the machine) which I have no idea how to configure...

Any way to sort out what's wrong I think I need the original SETUP program for the AT or the generic version of an AT setup program

Can any one ship me a bootable 5,25 floppy with the original or generic setup program so I can configure the BIOS, and also is there a manual for how to configure the jumpers on the disk controller card?

The BIOS in the AT is the first generation from 1984

 

[modem7]

Also there is some jumper pins on the disk controller card (the original IBM that came with the machine) which I have no idea how to configure...
The BIOS in the AT is the first generation from 1984

So you have a first generation 5170. The jumpers on the hard/floppy controller do not need to be changed but so that you can verify that they are set correctly, here are the jumper settings on my first generation hard/floppy controller (has "1983 FIXED DISK - FLOPPY CONTROLLER" on bottom):
E1/E2/E3 = jumper from E2 to E3
E4/E5/E6 = jumper from E5 to E6
E7/E8 = jumper on
E11/E12 = jumper on

Any way to sort out what's wrong

First, is the LED on the front of the ST-225 (the ST-225, not the 5170 chassis) constantly lit? If not, there is a cable issue or the drive-select jumper on the rear of the ST-225 is not set correctly for the 5170. With the St-225 at the end of the proper twisted control cable, the jumper should be in the first position, that is, closest to the 20 pin connector.

If the ST-225 LED is constantly lit, are you seeing a 1700 series error on power up? If so, that may be because the drive is faulty, but it may also be that the ST-225 needs to be low-level formatted whilst connected to the IBM hard/floppy controller (followed by FDISK/FORMAT).

 

[billdeg]

BIOS?

ag.

 

[modem7]

BIOS?

All three versions of the IBM 5170 BIOS support an ST-225 (an IBM type 2 drive).

 

[Pekopome]

So you have a first generation 5170. The jumpers on the hard/floppy controller do not need to be changed but so that you can verify that they are set correctly, here are the jumper settings on my first generation hard/floppy controller (has "1983 FIXED DISK - FLOPPY CONTROLLER" on bottom):
E1/E2/E3 = jumper from E2 to E3
E4/E5/E6 = jumper from E5 to E6
E7/E8 = jumper on
E11/E12 = jumper on

Thanks I will get on to it when I get home from work tonight. It's the first generation 5170 BIOS.

 

[Pekopome]

If the ST-225 LED is constantly lit, are you seeing a 1700 series error on power up? If so, that may be because the drive is faulty, but it may also be that the ST-225 needs to be low-level formatted whilst connected to the IBM hard/floppy controller (followed by FDISK/FORMAT).

Ok i pulled the disk controller card out of the machine. The jumpers on the card was set as you mentioned. I get a constant light on the green LED and a single OK-beep from the computer. But MSD.exe in DOS still only see a Floppy 1,2 MB drive.

The jumper on my ST-225 was not on position 1/2 but on 3/4. I tried to change it to 1/2 as you said. But then the system wouldn't boot at all, and the green LED didn't turn on. So I changed the jumper back to position 1/2 ???

About the 1700 series error I don't know what that is and how it shows. But as I said the computer boots up fine without any error messages or beeps.

I guess I can't make any kind of format before the computer recognizes the ST-225.

I think the error lies in the programing of the BIOS, but hard to tell without the AT setup disk..

Any suggestions guys?

 

[modem7]

I get a constant light on the green LED and a single OK-beep from the computer. But MSD.exe in DOS still only see a Floppy 1,2 MB drive.
The jumper on my ST-225 was not on position 1/2 but on 3/4. I tried to change it to 1/2 as you said. But then the system wouldn't boot at all, and the green LED didn't turn on. So I changed the jumper back to position 1/2 ???

You must have a different cable to me, but the constantly lit LED (constant because of 'latch' mode in a 5170) is what you are after.

About the 1700 series error I don't know what that is and how it shows. But as I said the computer boots up fine without any error messages or beeps.

No, you wrote quote, "It spins up fine but when I boot from A: with DOS 5 the computer wont recognize the hard drive". "Spins up fine" in the context of a hard drive issue would be interpreted by the majority here as that the spindle is spinning. And "wont recognize the hard drive" doesn't imply a lack of error messages/beeps.
Anyhow, if you power up the 5170 after disconnecting the data cable (the 20 pin cable) from the ST-225, you'll see what I mean by a 1700 series error (you should see a "1790-Disk 0 error" error message).

During the 5170 POST, the POST reads sectors at the innermost and outermost cylinders. Because of the lack of a 1700 series error, that gives me good confidence that the drive is working at the low level - the controller can step the heads and read sectors, however I've seen hard drives with certain failure modes pass the POST test.

I think the error lies in the programing of the BIOS, but hard to tell without the AT setup disk..

I wrote GSETUP_BASIC and have tested it extensively, including on my own first generation 5170 with type 2 disk, and on all three BIOS revisions.
If you run the following BASIC code, which reads part of the BIOS/CMOS setup, you should see "32" (hard drive 0 = type 2, hard drive 0 = <none>).

out 112,18
print inp(113)

But yes, alternative setup can be done via either the 5170 Diagnostics disk, or via GSETUP (the DOS one that GSETUP_BASIC is based on).


The symptoms you describe could for example be caused by the drive having a readable low-level format (readable at least by the 5170 controller), but there is no DOS structure on the drive, such as a Master Boot Record and root directory.
Also, I've seen some versions of DOS have problems recognising hard drives that were formatted with a later version of DOS.

Did the supplier of the drive (i.e. johnorun) have the drive booting before he sent it?

 

[Chuck(G)]

Just a thought to toss in, here and then I'll butt out.

I once encountered a system with a similar complaint and darned near lost all my hair over it. Turned out that someone had installed a floppy cable instead of a HD one on the 34-position connectors.

 

[modem7]

Just a thought to toss in, here and then I'll butt out.

No, all contributions welcome.

 

[modem7]

Difference between floppy and hard drive 34 pin cable:

 

[Pekopome]

Difference between floppy and hard drive 34 pin cable:

Ohh no that could be the problem. Newbie as I am I just thought I could use the cable allready installed in the machine with the sticker C on it. So i just threw out the cable that (johnorun) shipped with the drive... F*CK!!

Any one have a spare.... ;(

 

[modem7]

If the 34 pin cable you have now has a 'C' on it, that's a good sign because IBM typically put letters on the 'block' connectors of their 5170 cables.
If it's the IBM cable, there will be two block connectors on it, one labeled 'C' for the C: drive and one labeled 'D' for the D: drive.
But for confirmation, compare your cable to the picture I posted, noting where the twist is in relation to the pin 1 wire (the red wire in the cables pictured).

 

[Pekopome]

If the 34 pin cable you have now has a 'C' on it, that's a good sign because IBM typically put letters on the 'block' connectors of their 5170 cables.
If it's the IBM cable, there will be two block connectors on it, one labeled 'C' for the C: drive and one labeled 'D' for the D: drive.
But for confirmation, compare your cable to the picture I posted, noting where the twist is in relation to the pin 1 wire (the red wire in the cables pictured).

Ok thanks modem7, I will check it when I get home tonight!

 

[Chuck(G)]

For whatever it's worth, I tended to use "flat" cables with no twists with MFM hard drives. Set the jumpers on the first (C: ) drive as DS0 and the second as DS1. I learned to do this after setting up a second drive on a system with a twisted cable and booting up and initiating a low-level format before realizing that I'd put the wrong drive on the wrong connector. Ouch.

Pay attention to where your small (20 conductor) cable is plugged. There are two headers on your hard disk controller board; make sure that you're using the right one with the right drive.

 

[Pekopome]

Pay attention to where your small (20 conductor) cable is plugged. There are two headers on your hard disk controller board; make sure that you're using the right one with the right drive.

Ok guys, with your advice I was able to do confirm that the BIOS is programmed correct, it gives me the code 32. The 34 PIN cable connected to the MFM labeled C is in fact a hard drive cable as shown on the pic.

When I unplug the 20 pin cable from the disc controllers right connection (J4) or attach it to the left connection (J3) I don't get a error code, but the system stops responding after the RAM count and I get no beep.

So i think I will go forward with the low level format. Just one question. Since I can go to C: in DOS. Can I make the low level command when I'm in A: or will that erase my original and only DOS 5.0 setup disk?

Thanks for all you help much appreciated!

Greetings from the snow covered Copenhagen

 

[Chuck(G)]

Booting from A: to low-level format is the usual procedure--and it doesn't affect your boot disk.

Although, why not make a working copy of your DOS disk? DISKCOPY does have a single-drive mode.

 

[modem7]

When I unplug the 20 pin cable from the disc controllers right connection (J4) or attach it to the left connection (J3) I don't get a error code, but the system stops responding after the RAM count and I get no beep.

On these old machines, there can be very long timouts in the BIOS for some of the hard drive errors. And so whilst some 1700 series errors appear immediately, with others what happens is that the POST appears to freeze, but then a minute or two later a 1700 series error appears. Perhaps if you had waited longer, you would have seen a 1790 error.

Yes, J4 is the header for the drive C: data cable.

Since I can go to C: in DOS.

Does a DIR command list any files in C: ?

So i think I will go forward with the low level format. Just one question. Since I can go to C: in DOS. Can I make the low level command when I'm in A: or will that erase my original and only DOS 5.0 setup disk?

With the 5170 hard/floppy controller, the "G=C800:5" method that you may have read about on these forums won't work. You will need either the Advanced Diagnostics disk for the 5170, or a boot disk that contains a tool that does low-level formatting (e.g. SpeedStor, SpinRite II).

 

[Pekopome]

Booting from A: to low-level format is the usual procedure--and it doesn't affect your boot disk.
.

OK when I try to do the low level format the computer just stops responding, and I need to restart the computer.. Still like the computer can't talk to the hard drive... Or maybe the HDD is not working...

 

[modem7]

I'll disregard your previous edited post because I saw the unedited post and I know from that that you tried to use G=C800:5 (i.e. invalid for the 5170).
As soon as you get the ability to copy files from the Internet to a 5.25" bootable floppy, you'll then have access to tools such as Speedstor.

It would certainly be good at this point if you could go through a low-level-format/FDISK/FORMAT sequence, but since you presently don't have the ability to low-level format, you can try something else:

The hard drive system appears (repeat: appears) to be working at the low level. So I think it's worth a try to use FDISK to delete any existing partitions then create a bootable primary partition, followed by "FORMAT C: /S". If you don't know how to do this, just ask and someone will take you through it. There are sure to be tutorials on the Internet that discuss that.

If that fails to get the drive booting, then you should go down the low-level format path.

 

[Pekopome]

Does a DIR command list any files in C: ?

I can't get to C: ind DOS, it says something like invalid disk, and then jumps back to A:

The hard drive system appears (repeat: appears) to be working at the low level. So I think it's worth a try to use FDISK to delete any existing partitions then create a bootable primary partition, followed by "FORMAT C: /S". If you don't know how to do this, just ask and someone will take you through it. There are sure to be tutorials on the Internet that discuss that.

Yes you are right some Googleing showed that the disk controller for the first 5170 don't have build in low level format tools.

I have tried to run FDISK but it keeps telling me that it can't find or read any hard drive, and then it returns back to the DOS Prompt. Am I typping the wrong commands or? I'm getting more and more worried that the hard drive is some how not working at all.