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Time to wait for power supply caps to self-discharge?

GreyHairedDECfan

Experienced Member
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Dec 5, 2021
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Northern Maryland
How long should I wait, to be safe, before opening up a power supply. In this case it's a DEC VAXstation.

I am reusing the case, including the power supply enclosure, for a RetroMod (installing a Pi in it).

I just want to be sure everything is discharged before cutting up the original supply.

Thanks.
 
I dont wait, I just drag the side of a metal screwdrivers over the bottom of the pcb discharging them... keep your skin clear of the metal.

Works every time. But I only use it on some PSU's. The 5155 PSU for instance kept a charge for a while so I had to keep doing that. The majority of Monochrome monitor PCB's I take apart.. I only Discharge the TUBE. I dont worry about board capacitors. But thats just me.
 
I ruined a screwdriver trying to discharge a capacitor the size of a pop can in a Z-19 power supply one time, lol.

Since then I stick a big resistor (10k or sumpin) under the test lead jacks on my multimeter, set it to DC volts, and watch the capacitor discharge through the resistor until I know it's done, heh.

A lot of PSUs have bleed resistors built in for this very purpose, but that Zenith sure didn't~!!! Haha.
 
You can also put the pcb on a damp towel. That will discharge all caps as well in a very gentle way and is completely safe.
 
We vaporised the end of screwdriver on an old valve ex. war department oscilloscope once that we were trying to repair at school. That went back in the cupboard never to come out again!

Dave
 
A lot of PSU's discharge in a minute though the circuit, but its worth noting that some faults can prevent the PSU from discharging.

I had a BBC master supply that didn't work and was surprised to find 300V still on one of the caps which normally would have been flattened in seconds. After I finished swearing it helped me diagnose the fault because it pointed at the open circuit resistor that should have allowed it to discharge.
 
We vaporised the end of screwdriver on an old valve ex. war department oscilloscope once that we were trying to repair at school. That went back in the cupboard never to come out again!

Dave
Yes we had many of screw drivers at various jobs with "spot weld" marks all over them.
 
Yes we had many of screw drivers at various jobs with "spot weld" marks all over them.
We had an incident at work when a sparky got the wrong panel at the back of some 415V switchgear and removed the cover. His last check before touching the connections was to put a screwdriver across a couple of phases, which blew big style.
 
Didn't need discharging, it needed turning off !

We dont tend to use things like that on HV circuits because they all have earth switches.

I used to do the safety documents for 3kV up to 400kV HV work (and everything else) and did the test for dead before touching.

Had a bit of an argument with a spark, when after I tested the busbars were dead, he wanted me to touch it. I refused as I had no reason to but he started getting arsy, when I said "I would rather be in court for your death than be dead myself, I'm not touching it", it didn't improve matters :)
 
The time to wait for a self discharge is a very good question.

And, it should be distinguished from the notion of shorting a capacitor out, to achieve the same effect (not a good idea).

Shorting capacitors directly into a low Ohmic pathway, I regard as stupidity and potentially destructive.

It is seldom required, if patience prevails.

If not, it should be done with a resistor to limit the current. Otherwise you will blow fragments off terminals with high initial peak currents.

The initial current, before the exponential decay of course, is the voltage divided by the ( resistance of the short + the capacitor's ESR).

I never directly short out any capacitor, including a charged CRT. Consider the initial peak current of a capacitor charged to 10kV and shorted into a low Ohmic pathway of less than 10 Ohms.

Generally the charge storage in electrolytic capacitors, which, for the most part, are the only ones that have the ability to store enough energy to give you a reasonable shock, have a relatively high self discharge rate, even when the designer has not even bothered to apply bleeder resistors to discharge them in a brief manner, meaning some minutes. Most electrolytics, have self discharged over a few hours, so you can bet if you leave them for 24Hrs, that task is self done.

The same applies to most CRT's.

Just to cite an example, a typical CRT, such as the one used in the PET computer I am currently working on, runs at a final anode voltage of 10kV. The capacitance between the internal an external Aquadag is close to 500pF. So the energy stored in the capacitance, at the moment the VDU is switched off is (CV^2/2), it is only a measly 25mJ which doesn't have a hope in Hell of harming a Human Being as a single discharge (farmer's electric fences; many put out a few joules of energy), yet you will see all sorts of ridiculous advice on the internet about discharging a CRT before it is safe to work on the VDU. To be exposed to this charge in the first instance, you have to go under the Anode cap, which is seldom required for most VDU servicing anyway.

And the worst of it is, if you short that charged 500pF capacitance to some earth point with a wire (as the Youtube videos from the supposed experts suggest) , the transient initial peak currents can be enormous and damage semiconductors in the unit.

In reality, because the semiconductor EHT rectifiers in the VDU's EHT circuit, have non-zero leakage, if you don't want that small harmless zap when you remove the anode cap from the CRT, just leave the VDU switched off overnight , the charge will dissipate. When you take off the Anode cap the next day, you won't feel a thing. But even if you took off the Anode cap 3 seconds after you turned off the VDU, it won't harm you, unless say you withdraw your hand quickly and cut it on a sharp object. Manufacturers suggested discharging the CRT's for another reason. If you are carrying one, and got a zap from the charge on the anode terminal, you might drop it on the floor.

On the other hand, if you had some high uF value high voltage caps that were not electrolytics, with a very low discharge rate, and charged up, especially if they are holding a few Joules of energy or more, it is sensible to discharge them with a resistor.

If one was very impatient, and had a large CRT with a higher anode voltage and a higher bulb capacitance, say a large CRT with 2000pF capacitance and charged to 25kV and charged to just over half a Joule, and you felt compelled to discharge it, if you didn't want to wait 24hrs for it to self discharge via the EHT rectifier leakage, and you had to go under the anode cap ASAP, the discharge is best done via a very high Ohmic value resistor, in the range of 100M Ohm to 1 G Ohm, as found in a typical CRT EHT probe.

There is another odd scenario, where you discharge a capacitor, and it self charges up again (a type of dielectric absorption), after you release the discharge resistor. This sort of thing tended to happen with gigantic uF value capacitors, such as 50,000uF types used in early computer power supplies. The manufacturers would supply these caps with a resistor connected across their terminals to prevent the capacitor from impersonating a battery.
 
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Here is an example of a vintage replica power supply I built, very similar to the manufacturers original design. But I chose to use film capacitors (they look like electrolytics but they are actually motor run capacitors). In the original design they had no bleeder resistors, because they relied on the self discharge rate of the original electrolytics. Because of this, I included a bleeder resistor which they did not, these sorts of capacitors stay charged for many days.


A film capacitor can have extremely low leakage, this feature was used as an "analog memory", in some vintage color video cameras from the early 1980's era. The idea was you placed a film capacitor of say 0.01uF to 0.1uF in the gate of an insulated gate FET (mosfet), wired as a source follower, then you connect that to a reed relay. When the relay was closed, the voltage was impressed on the capacitor, then when the reed opened the voltage just sat there on the capacitor and mosfet gate, with minimal droop even over some days. This was used in the color camera white balance circuit to "remember" the white balance or gain ratios of the RGB channels. It is a very good, simple trick, to make an analog voltage memory.
 
One thing we sometimes forget about electric shocks is that the harm may not be from the shock itself but the subsequent reaction. Lots of people have fallen from ladders, scaffolds etc after a none lethal shock.

So don't work on your CRT up a ladder !
 
The main capacitors that can represent a safety threat are those in moderate to high power SMPS's on the primary side.

For example, lets say you have one charged to around 320V and say it is a good value such as 220uF or more (for example the IBM5155 supply, low power by modern standards uses two 470uF caps in series with bleeder resistors)
so immediately after turn off the stored energy is about 11 Joules. In large power supplies it could be up to 40J or more stored. These are significant and risky energy levels and the voltage is high enough to establish a good current through the body. The largest farmer's electric fence units were limited to around 5 to 10J per discharge which is required to help contain large animals like horses, cows etc, and if you get a zap from that, which I have, I can promise you it is a very unpleasant experience. In some cases in the SMPS supply, the bleeder resistors have a penchant for going open circuit too. So if you have to work on these asap, without waiting a day for self discharge, the capacitors should be discharged, via a current limiting resistor, not a direct short unless you want to be blowing metal fragments off screwdrivers and terminals.
 
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One thing we sometimes forget about electric shocks is that the harm may not be from the shock itself but the subsequent reaction. Lots of people have fallen from ladders, scaffolds etc after a none lethal shock.

So don't work on your CRT up a ladder !
Yes that is right. The usual thing if a person is working, say on powered apparatus, typically tube equipment, if they touch something they shouldn't the hand and arm retract and that can cause a gash to the skin on a sharp object. Though with DC shocks the muscles can go into spasm.

Despite the very many shocks I have had over the years, especially working on tube gear, by far and away the worst one I ever had was from a 300V DC power I had made myself as a young teenager, because it was DC and the circumstances involved. I had built a Royer converter (A type of primitive SMPS) with two power transistors switching 12V from a car battery across the primary of a transformer, stepped up and bridge rectified to get the 300V DC. With the parts for it scavenged from the local dump.

I was using it to power a 2 foot long fluorescent tube, for a play hut (like a tree house on the ground where fiends would meet to smoke cigarettes and read those magazines). I was on my own. The tube was reluctant to start, but I could get it started by touching the terminal at one end with one hand and running my other hand along the glass. But you can guess what happened. I went too far and found myself connected with my hands grabbing each end of the tube, in spasm unable to let go of it. I was kneeling at the time. The tube went out and at first there was so much pain in my arm and chest area I could hardly think of anything else and unable to move. After some seconds of this agony I realized I could just move my legs. In a series of small movements I was able to move away and cause the wires to pull out of the Amphenol connector on the supply. Lucky I had just poked the wires into two of the holes of the 4 pin connector.

After that I became very cautious of operating on high voltage DC supplies while they were running. And preferably work where somebody else is around.

These days electric shock safety on the line side has improved somewhat with the RCD(ELCB) or residual current device on the dwelling's breaker box. Which helps prevent current flowing from one hand through your body to earth working on the line side of equipment or with accidental one hand contact to live(Phase). However, it makes it inconvenient to connect test instruments like scopes, so some people sometimes use an isolating transformer to power the SMPS. One interesting thing though, although the isolating transformer, implies increased safety, because of the isolation it affords, it defeats the function of the RCD because of the isolation.

My preferred method to examine the primary side of an SMPS, while it is running is to use the TEK 222PS (Power Scout) scope which has totally isolated inputs so you can connect the probe tip and probe earth anywhere you want. The scope recordings in the IBM5155 power supply article were acquired with this scope, have a look on page 14:

 
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