Vax 4000 Model 108 - console won't accept any input, reset of some sort possible ?

[jc179]

Hi everyone,

Hoping someone might be able to help me out a bit, I have a sort of Vax 4000 model 108, which I've seemingly messed up.

I accidentally plugged in a pci video card instead of the SCSI controller for the machine (there was no magic smoke or anything unusual, except my current problem), and now, the console is no longer accepting any input - it still initializes to the "console >>> prompt" as usual, but there is no response, issuing boot or boot dka0 does nil, it seems to basically be locked up from this point. I've tried reseating everything I can , and the machine currently has no disks or any cards installed, and is as base of a configuration as possible.

I am not able to find any sort of manual online to erase or reset things, aside from pulling the battery which led to no change.

I have verified
- the pinout and connectivity twice,
- even made up a new cable mmj to db9 following the previously working pinout I used from https://www.lammertbies.nl/comm/cable/dec-mmj .
- tried a new PC to see if perhaps something went wonky in my console machine

For the mmj to db9 I basically have
Dec side PC side
TX- and RX- to DB9 pin5 ground
TX+ going to RX on PC
RX+ going to TX on PC

And this has worked well for along time...

Does anyone know what if any of the jumpers under the plastic covering might 'reset' things and hopefully get this working again? Or could I have corrupted one of the many flash/eeproms on the mainboard somewhere doing this?

The board part# is 54-24695-01 and I am connecting using the marked port I use for usual console, and a few other jumpers in the area (there are many more under the black air flow cover). When I power up I see the following display on the console as usual, but it won't accept any input....GAH!

OPTIONS: I18n
Compiled on Sep 5 2010, 09:23:03.
Port /dev/ttyS0
Press CTRL-A Z for help on special keys

KA59-A V2.1, VMB 2.16
Performing normal system tests.
71..70..69..68..67..66..65..64..63..62..61..60..59..58..57..56..
55..54..53..52..51..50..49..48..47..46..45..44..43..42..41..40..
39..38..37..36..35..34..33..32..31..30..29..28..27..26..25..24..
23..22..21..20..19..18..17..16..15..14..13..12..11..10..09..08..
07..06..05..04..03..
Tests completed.
>>>

thanks for any tips!
Jonathan

 

[g4ugm]

does crtl+a give help? Does "help" do anything? "show device"

 

[jc179]

Nothing, no response at all

 

[g4ugm]

It sounds like the serial receiver chips have been popped, but I don't have any diagrams for that VAX. Perhaps a pic of the board near the mmj? but of course it could be elsewhere...

 

[jc179]

Snapped a few pictures, really hoping the PCI slots in this are the standard 5v ones, and not some *unusual* pinout.

I'm really not sure how something could have poped in that case... but yeah, its clearly not working now either... : / DOH!. Really hoping its just something that can be resolved!

Attached some images of the IC's in the console area

thanks for any insight

 

[cruff]

Is this a system that if a video card was installed it might change the console settings to point to the graphic display and an attached keyboard? Does it have a way to reset the settings to default?

 

[jc179]

Is this a system that if a video card was installed it might change the console settings to point to the graphic display and an attached keyboard? Does it have a way to reset the settings to default?

To be honest I'm not sure, this is beyond my understanding of it.... I am hoping that's all that happened as the rest seems OK.
Best case would be this case, and figuring out how to undo it, worst case I suppose is its corrupted an eeprom or damaged something somewhere...

Will keep plugging away

 

[Wildfire]

Is this a system that if a video card was installed it might change the console settings to point to the graphic display and an attached keyboard? Does it have a way to reset the settings to default?

These systems never supported graphics cards !

 

[Wildfire]

Snapped a few pictures, really hoping the PCI slots in this are the standard 5v ones, and not some *unusual* pinout.

Excuse me - but this is a VAX !

VAXen never had PCI !!!
DEC just took PCI-style connectors !
IMO bc of money reasons - also in other systems; f.e. the Personal Workstation i and a systems.

You wrote that there has been no smoke, but imo your system is at least partly toast.
Eventually the failure is only that the serial port driver chips are fried, but it may also be that the chips they got their data from are fried...

 

[tradde]

If you plug something into a slot you think is one type of slot (but aren't sure) you're very likely to fry something. Hopefully what got fried is an easy fix.

 

[jc179]

Yeah, this really sucks.
Didnt even think about those being CDAL / DSSI , Damn it I should know to be more careful on things like this.

Awesome.

Thanks for pointing that out, hopefully its fixable. I can see on the .23.22 part of startup, the scsi disks activity light flashes, as does the hdds, so something is at least still working there.


Not many of the datasheets seem to be readily available either. This is going to be difficult to figure out for sure.

Jonathan

 

[tradde]

Maybe you can find someone else with one of these and do some comparisons?

 

[jc179]

Maybe you can find someone else with one of these and do some comparisons?

thanks, fingers crossed I can !

Would be good to find a pinout for the slots so I can do some testing/tracing - anyone have any such information?

 

[jplr]

> When I power up I see the following display on the console as usual, but it won't accept any input.

Then it's unlikely that the UART is not working, maybe something is blown up on the input interface to the UART? Some level +/- 12v to 5v shifter?
Maybe you can track the signals on their path on the PCB from the MMJ to the UART (or whatever it uses for the serial interface)

 

[jplr]

> I have a sort of Vax 4000 model 108,

I am just a noob but don't you think your machine looks like a desktop computer?
Vax 4000 model 108 looks very different.

There is a VAXstation 4000 Model 90, which has a graphics card, is your machine similar?

The VaxStation 4000 model 90 has a KA49 CPU, your machine has a KA59 CPU so maybe they are related.

 

[jc179]

Just a little bit of an update, I was plugging away with the system further this morning, and decided to pop the vax scsi card it came with back in (54-24711-01) . I found a brief glimmer of hope when I plugged it back in with the drives attached, during post, at the ..23..22..21, I could see the system probing each drive one after another. There was some life on the bus there, but why wasn't my console working.

As I rebooted a few more times with the card installed to watch if that behavior was consistent, the machine started not always posting, and then all of the sudden I got this error on startup :

55..54..53..52..51..

? Test_Subtest_30_05 Loop_Subtest=01 Err_Type=FF DE_Memory_Init_Bitmap.lis
Vec=0054 Prev_Errs=00 P1=00000000 P2=00000000 P3=00300000 P4=07000001
P5=07070707 P6=00F00000 P7=082FD000 P8=800D0404 P9=08000000 P10=2006A96E
r0=00000002 r1=00F00000 r2=21018020 r3=00000001 r4=FFFFFFFE r5=00000001
r6=FFFFFFFE r7=21018048 r8=00000000 r9=20140758 r10=00000000 r11=2014044B
EPC=2006A561 Lis_Add=01DD dser=0000 cesr=00000000 intmsk=00 intreq=80 icsr=01
pcsts=FE00 pcadr=FFFFFFF8 pcctl=FC00 cctl=00000020 bcetsts=0000 bcedsts=0000
cefsts=00019200 nests=00 mmcdsr=082FD000 mesr=000D0000

Normal operation not possible.

>>>lkjhkjhlkjhl
?63 ILLEGAL COMMAND
>>>show errors

No configuration data, do "T A1" first

Memory set 3: 00000000 to 07FFFFFF, 128MBs, 0 good pages, 262144 bad pages
Set 3 on SIMM_carrier_J1 (J1...) (J2...) (J3...) (J4...)

Total of 128MBs, 0 good pages, 262144 bad pages, 15 reserved pages
>>>

Wow, totally unexpected, and somehow the console magically worked - I have no explanation at all, except that the one of my 4 72pin simm had an issue on post. At this point I shutdown the machine and decided to contact clean everything.

While cleaning everything up (see attached pictures) I had long since disconnected the nicad battery backup pack, but somehow I found some very unexpected battery looking corrosion on the bottom of the backplane, on just one of the tips of the pins on the bottom of the CDAL slot (see picture for reference), and also on the small IC near the P5 power connector. I can only hope that the original battery didn't leak into the board a long time ago, and that's festering inside somehow.

Anyways I cleaned it all up, contact cleaned the CPU board to backplane connectors and tossed it all together again, to my sheer amazement (and perhaps a lotttt of dumb luck), the console was accepting input again. Phew!

>>>boot
(BOOT/R5:0 DKA0)

2..
-DKA0
1..0..


%SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping the SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Disk
%SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT SYSDUMP.DMP on System Disk successfully mapped
OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version V7.1 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0
%DECnet-I-LOADED, network base image loaded, version = 05.0C.00
<snip>
......
......
......
<snip>
Welcome to OpenVMS (TM) VAX Operating System, Version V7.1

Username: system
Password:
Welcome to OpenVMS (TM) VAX Operating System, Version V7.1 on node VAXSTN
Last interactive login on Saturday, 1-JAN-2000 00:37
Last non-interactive login on Friday, 23-NOV-2001 14:09
$

I have no idea what its issue was [aside from my blunder of plugging in something I shouldn't have], it has always been very moody machine since I got it day 1 about 15 years ago, which is maybe why it was tossed to begin with. I had tried reseating everything (but not looking close enough at things, clearly!) . It probably just wanted to die back then, but I refused to let it die.... as I really wanted a vax box, and those are near impossible to find where I live these days...!

I thank you all very much for your time, and valuable lesson I've learned. I have gone through the 'stack' of cards I thought originally came with this box, and reduced it down to only 2 which would have come with this unit , and carry the DEC yellow label (the video card had DEC chip on it, and I suspect that is why I assumed I thought it came with this).

Hopefully this thing stays working, it would sure be nice to be able to find one that isn't so finicky, pretty much every time I want to use this thing its beginning to turn into a epic battle with a time vampire.

Jonathan

 

[jc179]

> When I power up I see the following display on the console as usual, but it won't accept any input.

Then it's unlikely that the UART is not working, maybe something is blown up on the input interface to the UART? Some level +/- 12v to 5v shifter?
Maybe you can track the signals on their path on the PCB from the MMJ to the UART (or whatever it uses for the serial interface)

I suspect you're right on track here, I did check the power supply voltage, all of them look OK, except the +12v rail is a little low at 11.8v.
-5 and -12 v are working ok, but there is also an onboard dc-2-dc converter which who knows maybe flakey ("Reliability 2QP12U9 Q-PAC" ) .

I suppose one day its going to be in-op, but I am hoping I can keep it going until I find something better!

> I have a sort of Vax 4000 model 108,

I am just a noob but don't you think your machine looks like a desktop computer?
Vax 4000 model 108 looks very different.
View attachment 1263650
There is a VAXstation 4000 Model 90, which has a graphics card, is your machine similar?

The VaxStation 4000 model 90 has a KA49 CPU, your machine has a KA59 CPU so maybe they are related.

My machine looks like the first one you posted, the tower configuration, as I recall it sort like this one (https://www.manualslib.com/products/Digital-Equipment-Vax-4000-108-10831991.html) . I never had the case with mine, as that wasn't able to be saved when I saved the rest of the machine, so I have it stuck in another box sadly. I do not know 100% it is a Vax 4000 model 108, but that's the closest I've been able to find...so I went with it! (I think the 108 has a KA57 cpu, mine has a KA59).

You could be 100% right, they may infact be related, and there is no guarantee what I got actually came from the tower case I got it from, it is entirely possible someone else could have moved parts around long before I got there.... So it does remain a bit of a mystery.
If anyone knows I'd sure be interested to identify what I actually have!

It would be nice to get a proper chassis case for it, but they don't seem to turn up very often!

thanks again!

Jonathan

 

[Wildfire]

@jc179


You have had so much luck that there hasn't been fried something...

Keep this system well stored !
FYI: These systems are still worth serious money !
I mean in the 4 digit range, not beginning with a one as the first digit (for a complete system with tower ) - sometimes even for parts...

Your tower problem may be solved if you are able to get an "Personal Workstation" i or a series.

VAXwise there have been three models using these chassis:
The MicroVAX 3100 Model 88 or 98
and the
VAX 4000 model 108

see:

https://manx-docs.org/collections/antonio/dec/MDS-2000-01/cd1/IPB/VX489IPA.PDF

A bit pricey for a private buyer, but from business sellers:

DIGITAL PERSONAL WORKSTATION 500AU SN-B3AAA-P2 768 MB MEMORY WITH DISK | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for DIGITAL PERSONAL WORKSTATION 500AU SN-B3AAA-P2 768 MB MEMORY WITH DISK at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Dec digital Personal Workstation- SN-B3AAA-R2 VINTAGE 1998-POWER TESTED ONLY.(2) | eBay

NO POWER LEAD OR ANY OTHER ACCESSORIES WITH IT. Spares or repair only.

www.ebay.com

They pop up from time to time for about 300,- from private sellers, depending on config and case condition...

 

[jc179]

@jc179


You have had so much luck that there hasn't been fried something...

Keep this system well stored !
FYI: These systems are still worth serious money !
I mean in the 4 digit range, not beginning with a one as the first digit (for a complete system with tower ) - sometimes even for parts...

Your tower problem may be solved if you are able to get an "Personal Workstation" i or a series.

VAXwise there have been three models using these chassis:
The MicroVAX 3100 Model 88 or 98
and the
VAX 4000 model 108

see:

https://manx-docs.org/collections/antonio/dec/MDS-2000-01/cd1/IPB/VX489IPA.PDF

A bit pricey for a private buyer, but from business sellers:

DIGITAL PERSONAL WORKSTATION 500AU SN-B3AAA-P2 768 MB MEMORY WITH DISK | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for DIGITAL PERSONAL WORKSTATION 500AU SN-B3AAA-P2 768 MB MEMORY WITH DISK at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Dec digital Personal Workstation- SN-B3AAA-R2 VINTAGE 1998-POWER TESTED ONLY.(2) | eBay

NO POWER LEAD OR ANY OTHER ACCESSORIES WITH IT. Spares or repair only.

www.ebay.com

They pop up from time to time for about 300,- from private sellers, depending on config and case condition...

I have indeed had so much luck! Those horseshoes really came in handy this time!

Any idea why the Vax4000 model 108 documentation mentions CPU KA57, and this is a KA59 - is that just a later revision or is there some difference between the two? Is there any info on these CPU or what ones are compatible with another OS/software wise?

Thanks very much for sharing the info on the case, maybe I can find a personal machine? Will be keeping the machine as safe as I can, and will avoid any future blunders. Is there any internal chassis wiring diagrams available? There is some part of the front panel connector i don't have the full pinout for, would that be documented anywhere?


I didn't realize these were so much, makes it harder to even find another in better shape! Probably majority have been e-cycled by now : ( .

Will keep my eyes out, hoping to goto VCF this year, maybe ill find something there !

thanks again
Jonathan

 

[Wildfire]

Any idea why the Vax4000 model 108 documentation mentions CPU KA57, and this is a KA59 - is that just a later revision or is there some difference between the two? Is there any info on these CPU or what ones are compatible with another OS/software wise?

I forgot...

Your's is not an VAX 4000 !

What you have is an MicroVAX 3100 model 98 !

Hardware should be the same (bc same chassis), i did not look after that, but imo the license costs are cheaper for a MicroVAX than for a VAX VMSwise...
Do you have permanent licenses installed on your system btw ?