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5155 adventure starts with a fire (videotaped!)

kewatsdop

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Mar 9, 2021
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Hi all,

I was about to start restoring this 5155 (it does not display anything -- probably a broken VGA card) when this happened :)


Off to replacing the C56 capacitor... I think this happens quite frequently, but I'm also curious if using a PSU different from the original (via ATX -> XT adapter) contributed to this.

I'm sure I'll have many questions after I've replaced the C56 and as I run into new obstacles.

Fun!

Adam
 
I'm also curious if using a PSU different from the original (via ATX -> XT adapter) contributed to this.
Potentially. Since it wasn't a dead short and rather a low resistance failure, if the substitute PSU has a high current rating it may of not seen the fault.
 
Off to replacing the C56 capacitor... I think this happens quite frequently, ...
You bet it does. See the list at [here]. Usually C56 and/or C58, the tantalum capacitors on the plus and minus 12V lines.

In terms of failure rate/occurrence, see my comments at [here].

The same rated capacitors (rated at 16V) are used on the plus and minus 5V lines, and they rarely fail. And so voltage applied versus rated voltage is 'part of the equation'.
 
It looks the the original supply's power connector is unplugged and something else is powering the computer? If it was another supply, it could have contributed, possibly not to the initial tant failure as this happens frequently (assuming it was connected properly) but definitely contributed to the spectacular nature of the failure. Also now you will need to check for damaged pcb tracks & connectors.

That exploding/burning tant is one of the worst I have seen.

As mentioned on another thread, the maximum amount of power that can be transferred to a shorted tant cap (or any load) occurs when the resistance of the capacitor equals the internal resistance of the power supply itself, and at that point the power supply will be loaded down to half its unloaded value. Power supplies with sensing & protective systems though, generally shut the supply output off if it goes significantly lower than its rated voltage value or if a safe value of current & voltage are exceeded.

The original 5155 supply contains a number of protective systems (under & over voltage and current overload) and was a design masterpiece, there is an article I wrote on it in the past.

This is an area I often bring up. Vintage Computers by their nature are risky from the perspective that they contain very large numbers of increasingly difficult to replace chips. A power supply accident, over-voltage, accidental reverse polarity, poor or absent protective systems in the substitute supplies feeding them are a major risk. When people power their vintage computers from non standard psu's, there are accidents in the wings.

For example, there are many switchmode PSU's people deploy to replace vintage computer supplies they can't fix, but the protective systems are not in those supplies, but they don't think about that.

For example never underestimate the ability of a vintage analog voltage regulators, like an LM309k and its cousins to protect downstream electronics and pcb tracks. they go automatically into low current shutdown mode when shorted out, protecting not only themselves, but pcb tracks too. Shorted Tat caps present no thermal event with these.

The original 5155 is a very "safe supply" to have connected to a motherboard and cards full of precious chips, possibly better than many which followed and it also contains a unique "supply in a supply" to power the 5155's VDU. Have a read and look at its protective systems designed to, in a nutshell, "save the computer's ass" A lot of later manufacture computer PSU's and most generic types don't have nearly such an elaborate arrangement:

www.worldphaco.com/uploads/The_IBM_5155_POWER_SUPPLY.pdf
 
NeXT, modem7, Hugo -- thank you for responding. I have ordered the new capacitors, will inspect tracks for damage of course, and will use the original PSU moving forward. Which itself may need recapping at some point. The substitute PSU I used is a high quality one which I've successfully used in many vintage computer projects, including XT boards. My assumption was that using a modern quality PSU was actually safer for the boards, but based on your comments it may not be true. I'll read the paper you authored Hugo to be more informed with this machine's restoration before I connect it again. By just glancing at the paper I also see the CRT monitor is powered directly from the PSU which I also didn't realize, so my setup wouldn't have worked correctly for this reason too. Thank you again.

Adam
 
Amazing that you had the camera setup to catch this rare event.
I have seen a more amazing catch. There was a post on the forum where a video was being taken of an image on a VDU's screen, right at the very moment the H. yoke scanning coils shorted out. The chance of catching anything like that on "film" is very very remote.

Sometimes when a very remote event happens there might be temptation to think is was a "setup".

I think you might suspect that it was because the computer was positioned on a cardboard box with a camera filming it, and it looked like somebody was trying to "torture" a vintage computer at Guantanamo Bay by applying high voltages to it, and were half way to waterboarding it, rather than a machine on a professional's workbench with test equipment around it and that somebody is trying to "take the piss" ? ....but I always give people the benefit of the doubt, the first time at least, but never the second, so they only get away with it once.
 
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Looks like my previous response is still awaiting moderation, so it is not easy to defend myself here... Let me assure you this was not set up. Or maybe to be more precise, all my work with vintage computers can be considered set ups as in "being filmed". I film everything I'm doing with old computers using a good camera, for several reasons:

a) if the project turns out to be interesting enough, I will write an article about it and post it on my website (which I'm not referencing here to avoid accusations of shameless plugs), and make a video out of it and put it on YT for others to discuss, reference in future, etc.;
b) as I disassemble my computers, it is easier to assemble them back in case I've forgotten the steps;
c) I really just like the process of filming and post-editing as a separate hobby so there's that.

The reason it was on a cardboard box is to get better view from top when filming. I was unable to extend the legs of my camera tripod enough to get the same view on my table. I actually got scolded by my wife for doing this, she wasn't happy I risked burning the contents of that box which is important for her.

I had 4 more cases of something blowing up in front of me, and only managed to film one of those, and I regret not filming the other ones:
* Amiga 4000T battery blew up when I was trying to desolder it (this one was filmed as in on YT as a part of larger video)
* Macintosh classic PSU capacitor blew up with white smoke
* External Macintosh SCSI HD PSU capacitor blew up (with a lot more smoke)
* Apple IIe PSU capacitor (the infamous Rifa) blew up polluting literally every component of the PSU which resulted in a long cleaning and restoration of the said PSU

I am sure more will come, and I hope they will be filmed :)

Adam
 
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Exploding tants sometimes accompanied by flying fragments leaving spiraling smoke trails across the work space is only one of the more exciting parts of this hobby. There's a reason why daver2 called them "Smurf Granades."
 
You were lucky that the power rail tracks on the pcb were not vaporized.
The OP did not say if replacing (or just snipping) this capacitor fixed the motherboard. :)

That did seem like a lot of current behind those fireworks. Wouldn't be surprising if there was collateral damage...
 
Mmmm. Tants. I actually threw away all my Tants. I had a project where I used one as a filter cap on a remote sensor application and sure enough, while it didn't have enough juice to explode it failed short and got really hot.

For no reason I could discern. Granted, I'm not an EE, but come on. I fondly remember the days when FET's were called "Flame Emitting Transistors" They seem to be a lot more stable now.

I put a current limit resistor on the power line and replaced the Tant with a ceramic.
 
I replaced the blown capacitor. I haven't tried connecting my substitute PSU (for the reasons mentioned above). However, I now measured the voltages on the original PSU, and it is clear the PSU is broken: it makes a clicking sound when powered on, but I get almost nothing (0.5V on 5V lines, 0 on 12V lines). So probably this is the source of the original problem with the 5155.

Next steps: use a different substitute ATX PSU (one that I used for diagnosing XT boards in the past, but need to find it and make sure it works first -- this will let me diagnose the board. And in parallel, open the original 5155 PSU and see if there's any obvious fault I can fix. I need a torx button screwdriver for that which I don't have, so that's another obstacle to overcome.

TBC.
 
Keep in mind:

Underloading: To operate, the 5155's PSU needs an adequate load. See the 'Start-Up Loading' section of [here].

Overloading: At any time, C58 may go short-circuit, overloading the power supply. And it won't necessarily fail with a visual indication. Or a different capacitor. For example, C8 on the IBM CGA card has a history of failure.
 
Thanks modem7. Will keep that in mind, even though I did test it under load (the motherboard). I'll try with MB + 2 IDE drives tomorrow.
 
Thanks modem7. Will keep that in mind, even though I did test it under load (the motherboard). I'll try with MB + 2 IDE drives tomorrow.
And keep an open mind. For all you know, C58 went short circuit (with no visual indication) as soon as power was supplied after replacing C56. People are that unlucky.
 
And keep an open mind. For all you know, C58 went short circuit (with no visual indication) as soon as power was supplied after replacing C56. People are that unlucky.
C58 may have gone "dead short" - power supply trips before the capacitor receives enough energy to get hot. Fires start where the resistance is low enough to draw enough current to get hot, but not enough to trigger protection (fuse/PTC/foldback) so that energy keeps on flowing until the short gets burnt out.
 
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