Gotek on newer PCs

[hunterjwizzard]

If you just want to mount floppy disk images off a USB drive you don't need anything other than a USB port.

Yes but its not nice to tell other people what they should and shout not want to do.

I know I know. It sounds stupid indeed.

What I am trying to find is a mixture of "(a usb floppy drive - the actual drive) + (a gotek-kind of thing to process floppy images - the 34-pin connection)" (read the + and - signs as you are doing math), without using a software solution. Most OSs and/or BIOS support a usb floppy drive (the "USB Mass Storage Class, UFI device, Floppy Device Unit" specs https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/usbmass-ufi10.pdf).

To answer your question "What does a USB Gotek achieve that putting the same flash drive with disk images in a USB port would not?" I would say "none", if you do use a software to mount the floppy image. But that's what i am trying to avoid.
Again it sounds stupid. Some people don't mind running a floppy image mounting software, I personally do not like that.

Doesn't sound stupid to me at all. My whole hobby is about figuring out unusual ways to do things that scratch some itch. I am totally onboard with trying to find a good answer for you.

Did you look at the USB-to-Gotek or PCIe-to-SCSI Emulator options? I know the second one is pricey. Don't know how much you want to spend.

 

[thisisamigaspeaking]

Yes but its not nice to tell other people what they should and shout not want to do.

I see it as wasting people's time, being unrealistic, and causing needless frustration in someone trying to figure out what the point is when there doesn't seem to be a point. I will unfollow this thread and I'd appreciate no more replies to me. Good day.

 

[Eudimorphodon]

PCIe-to-SCSI Emulator options

The question still stands if there's actually a version of ZuluSCSI that has a user interface to allow you to easily change disk images on the fly. Reading the docs it does have support for a physical eject button that can rotate between a list of disk images configured in the .ini file, but you'll be doing that completely blindly.

 

[hunterjwizzard]

The question still stands if there's actually a version of ZuluSCSI that has a user interface to allow you to easily change disk images on the fly. Reading the docs it does have support for a physical eject button that can rotate between a list of disk images configured in the .ini file, but you'll be doing that completely blindly.

Yeah I'm having the same problem, doesn't seem to have any external interface. A lot of this hinges on understanding what the OP intends to do.

 

[Plasma]

I see it as wasting people's time, being unrealistic, and causing needless frustration in someone trying to figure out what the point is when there doesn't seem to be a point. I will unfollow this thread and I'd appreciate no more replies to me. Good day.

 

[Moondog]

Works with W7 & W11 - cheap at about $17.

The advantage of a Gotek is not having to rely on floppies. I pulled several old floppies I had in storage out to use with vintage systems, and found several went bad due to mold or other contamination.

 

[Zare]

I mean it's a bit of a weird question, but I think I got the reason for it...Winimage is an browser/explorer application and OP wants to handle system mounted disk images ala Gotek.

Technically, Gotek over USB on Windows 10 and full virtual FDD driver on Windows 10 would be same thing. For the Gotek the backing store is in the hardware. For the virtual driver, it's the software on the machine.
Gotek having a hardware bridge to the backend data doesn't mean it's a more authentic emulation than fully software solution. Gotek on DOS works seamlessly, giving an impression of a non-emulated device, because it exposes the hardware interface DOS understands.

Think about it this way. If Zip drive was mainstream, and floppies were secondary, back in DOS days we'd move floppy images via Zip, and mount them on DOS via virtual driver. There would be no reason for a Gotek-alike device.
(then there would be a design for go-ZIP 30 years in the future ). If the storage capacity of the machine is nm-fold to the removable media size, the most convenient option is to hold the images on the machine storage and emulate the media via software.
Originally, you didn't have enough space or even memory to host or run floppy images directly from the HDD, but nowadays that's a given.

So why doesn't someone make an USB microcontroller hosting floppy images exposing USB floppy standard? It's not hard. There's probably a design or two around. But it isn't used because it just implements in microcontroller software what could be done in the host OS itself. One gets a disk image. Instead of just double clicking on it to be mounted via vitual driver, one has to copy the file to the device and then instruct it to use it. I really see no benefit in this. If there are weird FDD formats to support, it's in both ways. You get nothing by transporting image data over USB.

 

[johnnycontrario]

Some newer motherboards don't even have a 34-pin floppy connection to support a floppy drive or a Gotek. Is there a way to connect a Gotek to those motherboards?

I don't necessary need to use a Gotek, but I would like to be able to mount floppy images and read/write them just like having a real floppy drive and disks.

If Gotek is not an option, is there a better option other than WinImage? I prefer not to use a "software" method.

I have one of those 34 pin to USB adapters and I use it with my Goteks for various reasons. I haven't run into any issues. The computer sees it as a regular USB floppy drive and changing disk images works just fine. If your BIOS supports USB floppy boot, then you can boot from it too.

YMMV: I put flashfloppy and displays on all my Goteks and I use Linux on my modern boxen. I might try it on a Windows box later if I have time. I expect it to work just fine.

 

[Eudimorphodon]

I have one of those 34 pin to USB adapters and I use it with my Goteks for various reasons. I haven't run into any issues. The computer sees it as a regular USB floppy drive and changing disk images works just fine. If your BIOS supports USB floppy boot, then you can boot from it too.

Okay, that's a good data point...

Out of curiosity, though, what happens if you use a disk image other than 1.44MB? (IE, 360K 5.25" or 720K 3.5"?)

 

[johnnycontrario]

Out of curiosity, though, what happens if you use a disk image other than 1.44MB? (IE, 360K 5.25" or 720K 3.5"?)

Not sure. I might try it out next time I'm at the workbench.

 

[h2ospa]

Okay, that's a good data point...

Out of curiosity, though, what happens if you use a disk image other than 1.44MB? (IE, 360K 5.25" or 720K 3.5"?)

I thought that gotek supports 1.44MB only?
Otherwise, how do people define the gotek in the BIOS, where we have to specify the drive type (360KB/720KB/1.2MB/1.44MB/2.88MB)?

 

[Unknown_K]

Amiga people use GOTEKs and 99% of their floppy drives are 720K

 

[Eudimorphodon]

I thought that gotek supports 1.44MB only?
Otherwise, how do people define the gotek in the BIOS, where we have to specify the drive type (360KB/720KB/1.2MB/1.44MB/2.88MB)?

Amiga people use GOTEKs and 99% of their floppy drives are 720K

The craptastic stock firmware that Gotek slaps on the drives at the factory only supports a single image size; that's why they sell "different models" for devices that take 720k drives instead of 1.44. But the hardware is in fact *identical*. 100%. The alternate Flashfloppy firmware for Goteks, however, which is almost always what people are talking about when you see them discussed on vintage forums, will emulate a whole slew of drives, and how it behaves depends is a mix of how Flashfloppy is configured (it has a config file, see the wiki) and what format it thinks the image file you've stuck in it should present as.

A Gotek with the stock firmware would be absolutely, 100% useless on an Amiga regardless of whether it was sold labeled as a 720k or 1.44Mb model, because an Amiga format doesn't match either of those. (The stock firmware only emulates MS-DOS-like filesystems and sector formats; these devices aren't even really intended for computers, per se, they were built to be used with embedded applications like sewing machines, CNC routers, synthesizers, etc, which read control files off of DOS floppies.) Flashfloppy, however, works fine with it.

The reason the question about what happens with non-1.44MB images is relevant to the USB adapter is those controllers are limited on both the hardware end and the software API; they don't really "present" as a full versatile floppy controller, they present as a block-mode USB mass storage device with a few special switches. A "real" floppy controller in a PC uses software routines to suss out what kind of disk it's seeing when it tries reading it. (For instance, in the case of density detection it'll try reading a sector with the controller set to the "fast" data rate and downshift if that attempt didn't work.) I'm... skeptical, that a USB adapter controller is going to be able to make sense of all the possible different data rates and geometries that the Flashfloppy Gotek is going to spit out if you put smaller format disk formats in it, but, I dunno, maybe the little microcontroller that handles what it sees from the disk will be smarter than I give it credit for.(*)

(* Although the listings I've seen for these things generally say they only support 1.44Mb drives...)

 

[johnnycontrario]

The craptastic stock firmware that Gotek slaps on the drives at the factory only supports a single image size; that's why they sell "different models" for devices that take 720k drives instead of 1.44. But the hardware is in fact *identical*. 100%. The alternate Flashfloppy firmware for Goteks, however, which is almost always what people are talking about when you see them discussed on vintage forums, will emulate a whole slew of drives, and how it behaves depends is a mix of how Flashfloppy is configured (it has a config file, see the wiki) and what format it thinks the image file you've stuck in it should present as.

A Gotek with the stock firmware would be absolutely, 100% useless on an Amiga regardless of whether it was sold labeled as a 720k or 1.44Mb model, because an Amiga format doesn't match either of those. (The stock firmware only emulates MS-DOS-like filesystems and sector formats; these devices aren't even really intended for computers, per se, they were built to be used with embedded applications like sewing machines, CNC routers, synthesizers, etc, which read control files off of DOS floppies.) Flashfloppy, however, works fine with it.

The reason the question about what happens with non-1.44MB images is relevant to the USB adapter is those controllers are limited on both the hardware end and the software API; they don't really "present" as a full versatile floppy controller, they present as a block-mode USB mass storage device with a few special switches. A "real" floppy controller in a PC uses software routines to suss out what kind of disk it's seeing when it tries reading it. (For instance, in the case of density detection it'll try reading a sector with the controller set to the "fast" data rate and downshift if that attempt didn't work.) I'm... skeptical, that a USB adapter controller is going to be able to make sense of all the possible different data rates and geometries that the Flashfloppy Gotek is going to spit out if you put smaller format disk formats in it, but, I dunno, maybe the little microcontroller that handles what it sees from the disk will be smarter than I give it credit for.(*)

(* Although the listings I've seen for these things generally say they only support 1.44Mb drives...)

I think you're right. It probably won't work, but it's worth a try.

I will say, even if it doesn't work, it is a useful combination to have from time to time. Last time I used it, I think it was to boot the Lenovo maintenance floppy on a new laptop motherboard.

 

[johnnycontrario]

I thought that gotek supports 1.44MB only?
Otherwise, how do people define the gotek in the BIOS, where we have to specify the drive type (360KB/720KB/1.2MB/1.44MB/2.88MB)?

I tried the Gotek firmware once. It's terrible. Install FlashFloppy and never look back. With the oled screen, it's basically the perfect solution for replacing old floppy drives. I think now you can get them with the display and control wheel included. I put a buzzer to mine to get the disk seek noises. It's not terribly convincing, but the audio feedback is surprisingly helpful.

Installing the firmware is actually way easier than it sounds. The worst part is the cursed USB A to A cable that you have to use the first time lol. Anyway, you can get them pre-flashed, so if you don't feel up to it, it's totally worth getting a pre-flashed one if you don't feel like an afternoon maker project. Updates are dead simple too, just put the new version in the root of your USB stick and pop it in.

 

[thisisamigaspeaking]

I tried the Gotek firmware once. It's terrible. Install FlashFloppy and never look back. With the oled screen, it's basically the perfect solution for replacing old floppy drives. I think now you can get them with the display and control wheel included. I put a buzzer to mine to get the disk seek noises. It's not terribly convincing, but the audio feedback is surprisingly helpful.

Installing the firmware is actually way easier than it sounds. The worst part is the cursed USB A to A cable that you have to use the first time lol. Anyway, you can get them pre-flashed, so if you don't feel up to it, it's totally worth getting a pre-flashed one if you don't feel like an afternoon maker project. Updates are dead simple too, just put the new version in the root of your USB stick and pop it in.

For a USB cable I use a C to A, and plug the C in on the computer/host side. A to A cables are a sin against nature.

 

[Eudimorphodon]

For a USB cable I use a C to A, and plug the C in on the computer/host side. A to A cables are a sin against nature.

Hah! Yeah, I did feel weird buying one. (If an A->C works that's actually a really useful hack to know.) I keep it in the envelope that I have some spare OLED screens for future conversions in to keep it separated from polite society.

 

[thisisamigaspeaking]

Hah! Yeah, I did feel weird buying one. (If an A->C works that's actually a really useful hack to know.) I keep it in the envelope that I have some spare OLED screens for future conversions in to keep it separated from polite society.

Can't guarantee that every cable will work as a C connector may have some electronics in it. I believe this is the one I was using https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07CN9TG2F/. I also have one of these https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M5GMZ6X/ but I don't believe that's the one I used.