Jackson
Experienced Member
A small teaser of what's in store; ask me anything if you will about this beauty.
- VCF South West - June 14 - 16, Davidson-Gundy Alumni Center at University of Texas at Dallas
- VCF West - Aug 2 - 3, Computer History Museum, Mountain View, CA
- VCF Midwest - Sept 7 - 8 2024, Schaumburg, IL
- VCF SoCal - Mid February 2025, Location TBD, Southern CA
- VCF East - April 2025, Infoage Museum, Wall NJ
-
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This is why I have a SuperCard Pro.
- Thread starter Jackson
- Start date
A small teaser of what's in store; ask me anything if you will about this beauty.
SomeGuy
Veteran Member
Nice. What platform(s) are these for?
Are these disks in known good physical condition or might there be some challenges reading data before disks crumble?
Any factory original titles or disks with possible copy protection?
Are these disks in known good physical condition or might there be some challenges reading data before disks crumble?
Any factory original titles or disks with possible copy protection?
Jackson
Experienced Member
All MFM formatted disks for PC compatibles. I think.
A few disks in some boxes are facing some issues where there's only, and I repeat, ONLY one to three bad sectors that I can't get rid of, no matter how many times I grind it around with the drives. Not even soap and water helps. It's a shame, because there's a perfectly good copy of The Norton Utilities 2.0 in there with three sectors that have this issue; and I'm not going to cheat by fixing up the image. I strive to make good dumps.
Al Kossow suggested using a whiteboard cleaner tool; at first we thought up Triton X-100 but that's a wetting agent. From some pages, vinyl cleaner could do. There are many factory originals-- IBM SCRIPT, Borland Turbo Pascal 87 2.0, etc.
A few disks in some boxes are facing some issues where there's only, and I repeat, ONLY one to three bad sectors that I can't get rid of, no matter how many times I grind it around with the drives. Not even soap and water helps. It's a shame, because there's a perfectly good copy of The Norton Utilities 2.0 in there with three sectors that have this issue; and I'm not going to cheat by fixing up the image. I strive to make good dumps.
Al Kossow suggested using a whiteboard cleaner tool; at first we thought up Triton X-100 but that's a wetting agent. From some pages, vinyl cleaner could do. There are many factory originals-- IBM SCRIPT, Borland Turbo Pascal 87 2.0, etc.
Chuck(G)
25k Member
FWIW, I first bake then lube with cyclomethicone and read immediately. Most disks don't need cleaning--that's what the wiper inside the jacket is for--if they're dirty enough that they don't self-lean, then the disk jacket should be discarded and replaced with a fresh one. The "cookie" can be gently washed with distilled water with a few drops of Kodak Photo-flo added (recommended dilution is 1:200).
The cyclomethicone will lubricate the heads so that any "sticky" coating won't. I've tackled those goshawful Wabash floppies this way. After a few minutes, the cyclomethicone evaporates completely without affecting the disk coating.
Also, very useful for sticky tapes.
The cyclomethicone will lubricate the heads so that any "sticky" coating won't. I've tackled those goshawful Wabash floppies this way. After a few minutes, the cyclomethicone evaporates completely without affecting the disk coating.
Also, very useful for sticky tapes.
Jackson
Experienced Member
Let me correct that. Two copies of IBM SCRIPT, and seven copies of Borland Turbo Pascal 87 2.0.
On other remarks, is no one going to question me where I got this lot from? Or how many boxes are in here?! :D
Chuck(G)
25k Member
No, looks like my garbage disk pile.
Jackson
Experienced Member
Well, at least guess the price that I got it for? There are some stuff in here, such as the disk for Norton Utilities 2.0 than can go selling for over $100 in value. But that's absolutely more than what it costed for everything else in this box-- at least show some interest.
I didn't make this thread for no reason.
I didn't make this thread for no reason.
Chuck(G)
25k Member
I get plenty of commercial software in client submissions. I don't feel that it's kosher for me to redistribute the stuff, since I didn't buy it. The media is not the license to use it. It's simply easier to run 5.25" floppies through the shredder and be done with it.
Occasionally, if there's something of historical interest and it's old enough, I'll ask the client if s/he minds making it public.
My POV, FWIW.
Occasionally, if there's something of historical interest and it's old enough, I'll ask the client if s/he minds making it public.
My POV, FWIW.
Jackson
Experienced Member
I didn't ask for your opinions; they are for a different matter which I don't want to discuss because it all comes down to politics. I asked for you to guess how much I got all of these floppies for.
I'm NOT planning to sell any of them at all, so don't even ask, and if you even need to know what I'm exactly doing, read the title of the thread again. And I'm not going to be willy nilly and risk everything to hand everything out to the entirety of the Internet either. There are also some disks which have personal data-- that I am going to keep out of the picture completely.
I'm NOT planning to sell any of them at all, so don't even ask, and if you even need to know what I'm exactly doing, read the title of the thread again. And I'm not going to be willy nilly and risk everything to hand everything out to the entirety of the Internet either. There are also some disks which have personal data-- that I am going to keep out of the picture completely.
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SomeGuy
Veteran Member
So you have already tried to read these disks?
Did you use any cleaning or preparation methods beforehand? Chuck's methods are the professional way. If you want the highest chance of getting every last possible bit at any cost, then his way is the best, but it does require cutting up the disk jacket.
I've found that even well stored floppy disks can contain contaminants on the surface of the disk and in the jacket liner. It may look perfect, but give it a spin and stuff starts falling apart. And then it is too late.
For disks that I want to keep in one piece, I normally use a washing method. Just run hot (no hotter than you can touch) water around the hub in to the jacket. Left, right, front, back, enough to rinse out any dirt, residue, or other junk. I don't recommend using soap, but if you feel you need it, don't use anything that will leave a waxy residue.
The big trick is getting the disks dry. Prop the jacket around the hub up with q-tips and put it in front of a fan. Adjust the q-tips periodically, and flip the disks around to ensure all areas get dry and prevent the jacket from sticking to the disk surface. Be gentle to avoid denting the cookie.
Don't use isopropyl alcohol, except as a last resort. Isopropyl alcohol can remove paint and rust. Guess what is on the surface of the disk: rust filled paint. It is especially destructive against scratches or existing flaking. Don't try and "clean" a a scratch like that. You might think that the brown stuff on your q-tip is dirt, but that is actually your DATA!.
As for that Norton disk, I'd start by carefully examining the surface of the disk and seeing if there is visible damage or junk at the location of the bad sectors. A careful cleaning with a wet q-tip may help. (Again, to not use alcohol unless you are positive the issue is some tough residue and not a scratch)
You should also try different floppy drives, as one may have more luck than another. Especially switching between 1.2mb and genuine 360k or vice versa.
The nice thing about a flux image is you can run damaged tracks through a number of different processing tools. One may have more success than another. I find it useful to make a flux image first, and keep first attempts around in case the disk gets progressively worse.
I don't know of a way to insert/edit tracks in a SCP image, but with a Kryoflux image, it is easy mix and match tracks from different reads.
If you want to send me a copy of the SCP dump, I can take a look at it and get some idea if any specific tweaks might help.
Did you use any cleaning or preparation methods beforehand? Chuck's methods are the professional way. If you want the highest chance of getting every last possible bit at any cost, then his way is the best, but it does require cutting up the disk jacket.
I've found that even well stored floppy disks can contain contaminants on the surface of the disk and in the jacket liner. It may look perfect, but give it a spin and stuff starts falling apart. And then it is too late.
For disks that I want to keep in one piece, I normally use a washing method. Just run hot (no hotter than you can touch) water around the hub in to the jacket. Left, right, front, back, enough to rinse out any dirt, residue, or other junk. I don't recommend using soap, but if you feel you need it, don't use anything that will leave a waxy residue.
The big trick is getting the disks dry. Prop the jacket around the hub up with q-tips and put it in front of a fan. Adjust the q-tips periodically, and flip the disks around to ensure all areas get dry and prevent the jacket from sticking to the disk surface. Be gentle to avoid denting the cookie.
Don't use isopropyl alcohol, except as a last resort. Isopropyl alcohol can remove paint and rust. Guess what is on the surface of the disk: rust filled paint. It is especially destructive against scratches or existing flaking. Don't try and "clean" a a scratch like that. You might think that the brown stuff on your q-tip is dirt, but that is actually your DATA!.
As for that Norton disk, I'd start by carefully examining the surface of the disk and seeing if there is visible damage or junk at the location of the bad sectors. A careful cleaning with a wet q-tip may help. (Again, to not use alcohol unless you are positive the issue is some tough residue and not a scratch)
You should also try different floppy drives, as one may have more luck than another. Especially switching between 1.2mb and genuine 360k or vice versa.
The nice thing about a flux image is you can run damaged tracks through a number of different processing tools. One may have more success than another. I find it useful to make a flux image first, and keep first attempts around in case the disk gets progressively worse.
I don't know of a way to insert/edit tracks in a SCP image, but with a Kryoflux image, it is easy mix and match tracks from different reads.
If you want to send me a copy of the SCP dump, I can take a look at it and get some idea if any specific tweaks might help.
Chuck(G)
25k Member
A guess would be an opinion, wouldn't it?
As far as politics, that's your opinion. Intellectual property laws have a somewhat contrary view.
Jackson
Experienced Member
Tried hot water and all of those tricks. It got some residue off, but it did nothing to get rid of these bad boys. They're all at the very end of the surface. Note that the window says six bad sectors, because I dumped the disk as a SSDD image through "C64/128", which specifies 42 tracks maxmimum and one head used. HxC confuses this as if the second head, which is unused, contains the same data as the first head. Even weirder, is that HxC with .scp files does not treat 5.25 disks as if the second head is on a separate side, but instead, has all of the tracks from there being merged into the first head.
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SomeGuy
Veteran Member
Someone needs to poke the HxC folks about that bug.
Otherwise, it does a good job of plotting the layout. From the shape of the erroneous data and how it crosses tracks in the same area, it is clear there is surface damage or junk of some kind. It is in the darker green bands, which means the sectors should not contain data. You should be able to confirm that by mousing over the plotted sector and viewing the contents. You should see something like F6 F6 F6 F6 F6 F6... with some gibberish in the middle. If so, then you are at least good software recovery-wise.
Those bad areas look big enough I'd doubt any alternate algorithm would make a difference. I'd also doubt a different drive would make a difference, although it might still be worth a shot.
What I would do is carefully inspect the disk with a magnifying glass, and a flashlight shining light at different angles. Try to identify the exact physical spots, and clean directly with q-tip and water. (Remember the first side is the back/bottom, and the second is the front/top). If there are no scratches or dents and water doesn't do it, then perhaps carefully touch up with q-tip and alcohol.
Although, in some cases issues on inner tracks may be caused by media defects that were there when it left the factory. It may have tested fine in their drives but degraded over time. (if they verified at all - the little red bits at the beginning and end of each sector indicate this was not even mastered in a professional duplicator).
Otherwise, it does a good job of plotting the layout. From the shape of the erroneous data and how it crosses tracks in the same area, it is clear there is surface damage or junk of some kind. It is in the darker green bands, which means the sectors should not contain data. You should be able to confirm that by mousing over the plotted sector and viewing the contents. You should see something like F6 F6 F6 F6 F6 F6... with some gibberish in the middle. If so, then you are at least good software recovery-wise.
Those bad areas look big enough I'd doubt any alternate algorithm would make a difference. I'd also doubt a different drive would make a difference, although it might still be worth a shot.
What I would do is carefully inspect the disk with a magnifying glass, and a flashlight shining light at different angles. Try to identify the exact physical spots, and clean directly with q-tip and water. (Remember the first side is the back/bottom, and the second is the front/top). If there are no scratches or dents and water doesn't do it, then perhaps carefully touch up with q-tip and alcohol.
Although, in some cases issues on inner tracks may be caused by media defects that were there when it left the factory. It may have tested fine in their drives but degraded over time. (if they verified at all - the little red bits at the beginning and end of each sector indicate this was not even mastered in a professional duplicator).
Chuck(G)
25k Member
I've seen this on disks with mangled/misaligned hub areas. The disk mounts off-center enough to get most of the sectors, but then goes "blind" in a cluster of them. You can try some Kyread to see if there really is any damage to the sector data.
SomeGuy
Veteran Member
I think chuck may have it here. In this case the physical disk surface will look perfect, there will be no physical damage, and cleaning won't help.
Might try a different 360k floppy drive, although I wouldn't expect much difference. And if this is the problem then I would expect a 1.2mb drive to do worse.
What does the hub area on this disk look like? Has it lost its hub ring?
Might try a different 360k floppy drive, although I wouldn't expect much difference. And if this is the problem then I would expect a 1.2mb drive to do worse.
What does the hub area on this disk look like? Has it lost its hub ring?
Jackson
Experienced Member
Indeed. The first side was written with a poorly aligned drive, and my Newtronics 360k drive had to suffer through some nice procedures before it could even read it.
Jackson
Experienced Member
Side one has a hub ring, and side two, the one I am trying to copy... no hub ring at all. It's a flippy disk with both holes punched in so that any drive can read the back side. This also means my high density drive can read it too.
The area near the hub might be gnashed due to the ring not being aligned correctly on the back side-- at this point, I don't think it's worth the trouble breaking the disk. SomeGuy, if you want, I can send you the SCP image of side two to see if you can take a look at it.
Meanwhile, I will post a progress of scanning every disk in each box I have-- all descriptions relating to personal information (names, etc.) will be stripped out.
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Jackson
Experienced Member
OK, no one is going to guess? You're all boring, but who cares; It's 37 boxes for $10 dollars at a flea market. Each disk is very much used-- lots of it what look to be some junk and backups. Then there are some gray discs that look to be following with more backups. Not too much gold in here, unfortunately.
The seller had no idea what these were, so;
The seller had no idea what these were, so;
Your statement wouldn't much apply here. These disks all look like they came from the University of North Carolina, but trying to contact the people that used or created these disks would be much like trying to talking to thin air. Better to put them through the shredder then.
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SomeGuy
Veteran Member
Shredder?
One of the nice things about the SuperCard Pro is that it has a nice media tester that will also wipe the data. I like to test my double-density disks as 96TPI quad density for additional good measure. If they test the SCP media test and then reformat 360k in a PC drive, I'll keep it. If not, well, then it can go in shredded.
Of course, any Wabash disks come pre-shredded
One of the nice things about the SuperCard Pro is that it has a nice media tester that will also wipe the data. I like to test my double-density disks as 96TPI quad density for additional good measure. If they test the SCP media test and then reformat 360k in a PC drive, I'll keep it. If not, well, then it can go in shredded.
Of course, any Wabash disks come pre-shredded
Trixter
Veteran Member
It's not a contest. If you want bragging rights, try a vintage computer group on Facebook, as they are more into that sort of thing. (For bragging/showing games only, try the facebook group "Big Box PC Games".)