VAX Haul...

nadaveiron · Oct 14, 2020

FWIW, there's this thing on Hackaday:
https://hackaday.io/project/19576-dec-mouse-adapter
I never tried it myself (I got a real VSXXX), but was considering it before I got that.

daver2 · Oct 14, 2020

Thanks for the links.

Another chance conversation the other day with a remote work colleague *** may *** have located another stash of decommissioned VAX machines...

These things are like busses!

Anyhow - got my CDROM drive working and burnt an install disk for OpenVMS 6.1.

Tried to install it - and then realised I had left my manual at home. Couldn't get past Standalone Backup. RTFM

. Just got home - to find I haven't got my install manual at home either - I took it to work... Is this old age or what!

Dave

bqt · Oct 14, 2020

daver2 said:
Thanks for the links.

Another chance conversation the other day with a remote work colleague *** may *** have located another stash of decommissioned VAX machines...

These things are like busses!

Anyhow - got my CDROM drive working and burnt an install disk for OpenVMS 6.1.

Tried to install it - and then realised I had left my manual at home. Couldn't get past Standalone Backup. RTFM . Just got home - to find I haven't got my install manual at home either - I took it to work... Is this old age or what!

Dave

You know it's all available online...

http://h30266.www3.hpe.com/odl/vax/opsys/vmsos73/vmsos73/6630/6630pro.html is for V7.3, but standalone stuff have not changed since forever.

daver2 · Oct 14, 2020

There is a long story about the internet access (or rather lack of)...

The bizarre thing is that my install manual is only 3m away from the machine in a plastic container. Dooooo!

Never mind, tomorrow's another day!

Dave

daver2 · Oct 15, 2020

Just looked up the protocol specification for the Logitech Logimouse C7 - and that (at first check) seems to support the same protocol as the DEC equivalent.

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/logitech/Logitech_Logimouse_C7_Firmware_Rev_3.0_Jan86.pdf

https://lists.debian.org/debian-mips/2001/07/msg00029.html (thanks for the reference Dave).

This is a serial RS232 mouse - so should just require a D connector to 7-pin adaptor cable manufacturing?

I did see somewhere that DEC did supply Logitech mice with some of their VAXstations.

I will have a hunt in my bits box - I am sure I may have a Logitech serial mouse somewhere...

Dave

daver2 · Oct 15, 2020

Getting further. Got the base OpenVMS 6.1 Operating System installed at the second attempt. I misread one of the questions on the first attempt...

Much easier than a RSX11M+ SYSGEN...

One step further.

DECWindows and some other layered products next.

I must also take a trip into work and see what spare licenses we have in the folder for machines that don't exist anymore.

Dave

bqt · Oct 16, 2020

daver2 said:
Getting further. Got the base OpenVMS 6.1 Operating System installed at the second attempt. I misread one of the questions on the first attempt...

Much easier than a RSX11M+ SYSGEN...

One step further.

DECWindows and some other layered products next.

I must also take a trip into work and see what spare licenses we have in the folder for machines that don't exist anymore.

Dave

Oh, c'mon. M+ SYSGEN is easy and smooth.
11M SYSGEN is the tricky one.
;-)

daver2 · Oct 16, 2020

Perhaps it is an 'age' thing...

Perhaps it was 11M at the time? That brain cell has died now!

I am having a night off for a change, so - before I do the next thing with my OpenVMS 6.1 install - I am after a little advice regarding layered products (e.g. VAX C, APL, ADA and DECWindows Motif).

My OpenVMS 6.1 CD-ROM is coded "AG-PXKUC-RE", titled "OpenVMS VAX Version 6.1 Binaries & Documentation 1/1" and dated "1994 April".

I see a 10 CD-ROM set identified as follows "AG-PZ3PJ-XE", "OpenVMS VAX Software Product Library (Disc 1 of 10)", "1994 November" (for disk 1 of 10

).

I am assuming this (and the other 9 CD-ROMs forming the collection) contain the various software products that I would need, and they would be compatible with OpenVMS 6.1? That's my first question.

My second is, how do I 'know' what is actually on these CD-ROMs (e.g. which version of VAX C) and how would I go about installing it? I assume there would be some VMS command I could run to get a listing of the contents of the CD-ROMs?

I just need pointing in the right direction - I don't need a 'blow by blow' description of exactly what to do. I should be able to work that out for myself. I just need a 'kick start'...

I see the command BACKUP /LIST and wonder if I specified DKA400: as the source drive (this is my CD-ROM) that would give me what I want? Or would there be any other switches I need.

I am reading the manuals at the moment.

Scratch the above. I found this:

MOUNT/OVERRIDE=ID DKA400:
DIRECTORY DKA400:[0,0]

And VMSINSTAL for the layered product - but this assumes I know what the layered product is called (and the version) that I wish to install. Presumably now, my DIRECTORY will give me what I need to specify with VMSINSTAL?

Would I need to perform a DIRECTORY for each of the separate CD-ROMS I wonder?

Dave

DECtechGuy · Oct 16, 2020

If your VMS 6.1 CD came out of this Library then likely most of the layered products will work with 6.1. If not, they're kinda in the same year so you should be good.

I say most will work because I have one of these software libraries and encountered at least one layered product that didn't work on VMS 6.1, but 5.5! It was VAX/SPM specifically.

I have a Januarry 1995 copy that has VMS 6.1.

The Software Library should have come with documentation that had a software listing that included directory names, the CDs that had each layered product, and the name VMSINSTAL need a for the layered product.

bobaboba · Oct 16, 2020

And you don’t need the version or any other info for VMSINSTAL, just the name, and VMSINSTAL will tell you which version it’s found in the directory. Sometimes the name’s not what you think though - eg BLISS is something like BLS047 (forgotten now) - but those are exceptions.

reinhardtjh · Oct 17, 2020

daver2 said:
Perhaps it is an 'age' thing...

Perhaps it was 11M at the time? That brain cell has died now!

I am having a night off for a change, so - before I do the next thing with my OpenVMS 6.1 install - I am after a little advice regarding layered products (e.g. VAX C, APL, ADA and DECWindows Motif).

My OpenVMS 6.1 CD-ROM is coded "AG-PXKUC-RE", titled "OpenVMS VAX Version 6.1 Binaries & Documentation 1/1" and dated "1994 April".

I see a 10 CD-ROM set identified as follows "AG-PZ3PJ-XE", "OpenVMS VAX Software Product Library (Disc 1 of 10)", "1994 November" (for disk 1 of 10 ).

I am assuming this (and the other 9 CD-ROMs forming the collection) contain the various software products that I would need, and they would be compatible with OpenVMS 6.1? That's my first question.

Given the dates, yes.

daver2 said:
My second is, how do I 'know' what is actually on these CD-ROMs (e.g. which version of VAX C) and how would I go about installing it? I assume there would be some VMS command I could run to get a listing of the contents of the CD-ROMs?

You can mount the CD with the command "MOUNT /OVERRIDE=ID xxxx:" which tells the mount command to ignore the label and mount the CD. I'll give examples from my December 1995 VAX VMS Software Product Library CD set. Mounting the first CD in the drive:

Code:

$ mount /over=id dka500:
%MOUNT-I-WRITELOCK, volume is write locked
%MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, VAXBINDEC951 mounted on _$101$DKA500: (LAUMER)
$ set def dka500:[000000]

On each CD there is a README directory:

Code:

$ set def dka500:[readme]
$ dir

Directory DKA500:[README]

CDMASTER_INDEX.PS;1                                    244/248       17-NOV-1995 15:39:23.89  [SYSTEM]         (RE,RE,RE,RE)
CDMASTER_INDEX.TXT;1                                   121/128       17-NOV-1995 15:39:23.96  [SYSTEM]         (RE,RE,RE,RE)
SW_COMPAT_MATRIX.PS;1                                  323/328       17-NOV-1995 15:39:24.03  [SYSTEM]         (RE,RE,RE,RE)
SW_COMPAT_MATRIX.TXT;1                                  87/88        17-NOV-1995 15:39:24.10  [SYSTEM]         (RE,RE,RE,RE)
SW_LICENSE_DOC.PS;1                                     32/32        17-NOV-1995 15:39:24.17  [SYSTEM]         (RE,RE,RE,RE)
SW_LICENSE_DOC.TXT;1                                     9/16        17-NOV-1995 15:39:24.23  [SYSTEM]         (RE,RE,RE,RE)
USER_GUIDE.PS;1                                        423/424       17-NOV-1995 15:39:24.30  [SYSTEM]         (RE,RE,RE,RE)
USER_GUIDE.TXT;1                                       200/200       17-NOV-1995 15:39:24.36  [SYSTEM]         (RE,RE,RE,RE)

Total of 8 files, 1439/1464 blocks.

The file "CDMASTER_INDEX.TXT" contains (duh) an index of all the products on the CD set with it's location specified - CD and directory. You can do a "TYPE /PAGE CDMASTER_INDEX.TXT" to get the listing at your screen or do an EDT CDMASTER_INDEX.TXT to be able to scroll around and look. The "PS" version is a postscript file which produces the document on a PS printer. Got an LN03 handy? :D

The text file looks like this:

Code:

type /page CDMASTER_INDEX.TXT

<snip>

OpenVMS VAX December 1995 Software Product Library Master Index



    Table_1-1_December_1995_Master_Index_____________________________

    Product_Name_______________Vers___UPI____Status___CD__Directory__

    3270 Terminal Option       1.1    VV9AA           2   [CXM011]
    Software
 
    AAF01/VMS Subroutine       2.0    EFRAA           2   [AAF01020]
    Library

    ACMS DESKtop for OpenVMS   2.2    GZGAA  UPD      1   [ACMSDI022]

So you can see the version of the product, which CD it's on and the directory on that CD.

daver2 said:
I just need pointing in the right direction - I don't need a 'blow by blow' description of exactly what to do. I should be able to work that out for myself. I just need a 'kick start'...

The file "USER_GUIDE.TXT" in the readme directory will tell you just about everything you need to know.

daver2 said:
I see the command BACKUP /LIST and wonder if I specified DKA400: as the source drive (this is my CD-ROM) that would give me what I want? Or would there be any other switches I need.

No, BACKUP /LIST needs a BACKUP save set as an input. The CD is a normal VMS structured disk so DIRECTORY works normally for poking around. The CD directory structure is explained in the USER_GUIDE also.

daver2 said:
I am reading the manuals at the moment.

Scratch the above. I found this:

MOUNT/OVERRIDE=ID DKA400:
DIRECTORY DKA400:[0,0]

And VMSINSTAL for the layered product - but this assumes I know what the layered product is called (and the version) that I wish to install. Presumably now, my DIRECTORY will give me what I need to specify with VMSINSTAL?

The USER_GUIDE has instructions for VMSINSTAL

daver2 said:
Would I need to perform a DIRECTORY for each of the separate CD-ROMS I wonder?

Dave

No. But you can. The USER_GUIDE and index will tell you where everything is.

reinhardtjh · Oct 17, 2020

Also, if you ever need an index for a kit you don't have or just want to look up when a product was available, HP still has a master list. I don't know how long it will be around but it's still there currently. Unfortunately it only goes back as far as 1997

Master Index - Software Products Library SPL Corporate Consolidation Titles

There is another which may last longer as it's a private web site:

[URL="http://de.openvms.org/spl.php[/URL]

You can search on product or list contents of a certain CD kit. For example here is May 1994 for VAX:

http://de.openvms.org/spl.php?produ...nVMS+VAX&condist_id=266&display=full&sortby=0

bqt · Oct 17, 2020

reinhardtjh said:
The file "CDMASTER_INDEX.TXT" contains (duh) an index of all the products on the CD set with it's location specified - CD and directory. You can do a "TYPE /PAGE CDMASTER_INDEX.TXT" to get the listing at your screen or do an EDT CDMASTER_INDEX.TXT to be able to scroll around and look. The "PS" version is a postscript file which produces the document on a PS printer. Got an LN03 handy? :D

[...]

No, BACKUP /LIST needs a BACKUP save set as an input. The CD is a normal VMS structured disk so DIRECTORY works normally for poking around. The CD directory structure is explained in the USER_GUIDE also.

Two (slightly irrelevant) comments only...

1. The LN03 do not understand Postscript. For that you would need the LN03R Script Printer. (The LN03 only understands ANSI escape sequences and sixel graphics)
2. The file system of these CDs are not the native VMS file system (ODS-2), but actually standard ISO 9660. So you should be able to mount these CDs on pretty much any machine.

For the rest, your comments were excellent. I don't think anything needs to be said.

reinhardtjh · Oct 17, 2020

bqt said:
Two (slightly irrelevant) comments only...

1. The LN03 do not understand Postscript. For that you would need the LN03R Script Printer. (The LN03 only understands ANSI escape sequences and sixel graphics)

Okay. I had forgotten that difference. My last contact with an LN03 type printer was back in 1993. I remembered it did postscript but not that it was a special version. I almost mentioned the LN17 but Googling that, I find it also came in PCL (LN17) and Postscript (LN17ps) versions.

bqt said:
2. The file system of these CDs are not the native VMS file system (ODS-2), but actually standard ISO 9660. So you should be able to mount these CDs on pretty much any machine.

The format of DEC CD's varied. The very earliest from around 1990 until I don't know when were ISO 9660 and you had to use a special command to mount on a VAX. Then at some point they became ODS format. My 1994 and up are as such. They mount on VMS systems but not on my Mac, Linux or Windows machines. This includes the documentation disks with BOOKREADER format documentation. Then later they switched the documentation CD to use a hybrid format that mounted on both VMS and non-VMS systems. Even my Software Product Library CD from 2010 are still ODS only and will not mount on my Mac or Linux systems.

For example, this Nov 1994 VAX SPL disk I used above. Loaded into my Mac's CD drive I get the "The disk you inserted was not readable by this computer" message. DiskUtil shows it in the list but no file system:

Code:

/dev/disk25 (internal, physical):
   #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
   0:        CD_partition_scheme                        *716.1 MB   disk25

But if I dump the raw disk:

Code:

galadriel:tmp root# hexdump -C -n 4096 /dev/disk25
00000000  00 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff 00 00 02 00 01  |................|
00000010  a0 00 c6 15 00 02 c0 11  c0 65 1e 00 01 94 03 03  |.........e......|
00000020  f7 09 06 00 fb 01 05 00  00 00 5f 90 76 ff df 8b  |.........._.v...|
00000030  74 ff fd 80 87 00 56 41  58 42 49 4e 44 45 43 39  |t.....VAXBINDEC9|
00000040  35 31 20 20 20 20 69 73  20 6e 6f 74 20 61 20 73  |51    is not a s|
00000050  79 73 74 65 6d 20 64 69  73 6b 0d 0a 0a 00 00 00  |ystem disk......|
00000060  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  |................|
*
00000210  01 00 00 00 92 03 00 00  50 07 00 00 01 02 08 00  |........P.......|
00000220  02 00 13 00 19 00 21 00  c0 03 00 00 08 08 01 00  |......!.........|
00000230  11 00 09 00 00 00 00 00  00 00 08 00 04 00 01 00  |................|
00000240  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 fa  00 fe 2b 11 80 fa 5c bd  |..........+...\.|
00000250  60 98 99 00 10 03 40 00  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  |`.....@.........|
00000260  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  |................|
*
000003d0  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00 20 20 20 20  |............    |
000003e0  20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20  56 41 58 42 49 4e 44 45  |        VAXBINDE|
000003f0  43 39 35 31 53 59 53 54  45 4d 20 20 20 20 20 20  |C951SYSTEM      |
00000400  44 45 43 46 49 4c 45 31  31 42 20 20 00 00 9f 7f  |DECFILE11B  ....|
00000410  02 00 00 00 92 03 00 00  50 07 00 00 01 02 08 00  |........P.......|
00000420  03 00 13 00 19 00 21 00  c0 03 00 00 08 08 01 00  |......!.........|
00000430  11 00 09 00 00 00 00 00  00 00 08 00 04 00 01 00  |................|
00000440  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 fa  00 fe 2d 11 80 fa 5c bd  |..........-...\.|
00000450  60 98 99 00 10 03 40 00  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  |`.....@.........|
00000460  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  |................|
*
000005d0  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00 20 20 20 20  |............    |
000005e0  20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20  56 41 58 42 49 4e 44 45  |        VAXBINDE|
000005f0  43 39 35 31 53 59 53 54  45 4d 20 20 20 20 20 20  |C951SYSTEM      |
00000600  44 45 43 46 49 4c 45 31  31 42 20 20 00 00 a3 7f  |DECFILE11B  ....|
00000610  03 00 00 00 92 03 00 00  50 07 00 00 01 02 08 00  |........P.......|
00000620  04 00 13 00 19 00 21 00  c0 03 00 00 08 08 01 00  |......!.........|
00000630  11 00 09 00 00 00 00 00  00 00 08 00 04 00 01 00  |................|
00000640  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 fa  00 fe 2f 11 80 fa 5c bd  |........../...\.|
00000650  60 98 99 00 10 03 40 00  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  |`.....@.........|
00000660  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  |................|

It is most certainly an ODS format. It does not have the Joliet or later hybrid metadata which would allow it to mount on other systems.

Here is a dump of the March 2011 Alpha SPL. You can see the format is the same ODS

Code:

galadriel:tmp root# hexdump -C -n 4096 /dev/disk25
00000000  00 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff 00 00 02 00 01  |................|
00000010  a0 00 c6 15 00 02 c0 11  c0 65 1e 00 01 94 03 03  |.........e......|
00000020  f7 09 06 00 fb 01 05 00  00 00 5f 90 76 ff df 8b  |.........._.v...|
00000030  74 ff fd 80 87 00 41 58  50 42 49 4e 4d 41 52 31  |t.....AXPBINMAR1|
00000040  31 31 20 20 20 20 69 73  20 6e 6f 74 20 61 20 73  |11    is not a s|
00000050  79 73 74 65 6d 20 64 69  73 6b 0d 0a 0a 00 00 00  |ystem disk......|
00000060  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  |................|
*
00000210  01 00 00 00 0a 04 00 00  50 04 00 00 01 02 08 00  |........P.......|
00000220  02 00 13 00 19 00 21 00  48 00 00 00 cc 05 00 00  |......!.H.......|
00000230  01 00 0a 00 00 00 00 00  00 00 08 00 04 00 01 00  |................|
00000240  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 fa  00 fe df 08 60 05 c4 92  |............`...|
00000250  15 92 aa 00 10 03 40 00  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  |......@.........|
00000260  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  |................|
*
000003d0  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00 20 20 20 20  |............    |
000003e0  20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20  41 58 50 42 49 4e 4d 41  |        AXPBINMA|
000003f0  52 31 31 31 53 59 53 54  45 4d 20 20 20 20 20 20  |R111SYSTEM      |
00000400  44 45 43 46 49 4c 45 31  31 42 20 20 00 00 0c 54  |DECFILE11B  ...T|
00000410  02 00 00 00 0a 04 00 00  50 04 00 00 01 02 08 00  |........P.......|
00000420  03 00 13 00 19 00 21 00  48 00 00 00 cc 05 00 00  |......!.H.......|
00000430  01 00 0a 00 00 00 00 00  00 00 08 00 04 00 01 00  |................|
00000440  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 fa  00 fe e1 08 60 05 c4 92  |............`...|
00000450  15 92 aa 00 10 03 40 00  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  |......@.........|
00000460  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  |................|

bqt said:
For the rest, your comments were excellent. I don't think anything needs to be said.

Thank you Johnny.

daver2 · Oct 18, 2020

Thank you everyone for your extremely helpful (and very detailed) assistance.

I will give my newly-gained knowledge a test this week!

I do remember reading somewhere that the DEC ISO images were in ‘name only’ and the content was only understood by VAX and ‘special’ reading utilities on other machines.

Cheers.

Dave

daver2 · Oct 20, 2020

Excellent advice, works exactly as described.

Thanks very much.

Next thing, install various languages...

Dave

g4ugm · Oct 20, 2020

daver2 said:
Excellent advice, works exactly as described.

Thanks very much.

Next thing, install various languages...

Dave

I wonder if you need Autogen that for back... If so you might want to read up on AUTOGEN before you start, you will probably need it..

http://www0.mi.infn.it/~calcolo/OpenVMS/ssb71/6015/6017p046.htm

generally the hardest part of any install...

bobaboba · Oct 20, 2020

Possibly manage without that pleasure for a bit, I recently installed 7.3 and about every language I could track down aside from APL (still planning that), and the initial default Autogen provided enough resources. I don’t think many languages are intensive apps. It wasn’t until I installed Multinet that I needed a few more pages. Don’t know about 6.1 though and I wasn’t installing any graphics.

daver2 · Oct 20, 2020

I remember at some point in the dim and distant past I had to increase the number of global pages to run a bespoke application I was trying to compile for a company.

It didn't seem that difficult at the time - but that was when I was younger and had more brain cells...

Thanks for the pointers though. I will have a look at some of the parameters and see what the current defaults are.

This was a text based application - so didn't have graphics either.

I just fancy playing with Motif on a VAX again! Why not I ask myself?

Dave

DECtechGuy · Oct 20, 2020

When you get into other applications like Datatrieve, DECintact, DECset, UCX, Rdb, etc then you'll be needing to change page allocations and other random parameters.

DECwindows/Motif will be needing the GBLPAGES bumped up, last I remember when I installed it.

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