GOTEK (drive B - external) problems

[HanJammer]

I was given a combat mission to archive disks containing letters from a certain oppositionist from the communist era - this is probably the only preserved copy.

My Schneider CPC6128 reads the disks correctly - now the question is to transfer them to the PC.

I prepared a centronics 36 <-> IDC34 cable compatible with the image here:

DIY:Floppy Drives - CPCWiki

www.cpcwiki.eu

To copy the disks to images.

Generally, the drive works "a little":

|b - allows you to go to it, cat shows the contents of the image, but trying to start the image from the image ends with the error "disc missing" - and subsequent attempts to access the drive cause this error (turning off the computer does not help - you also have to restart GOTEK). Once I managed to copy files from A to B under CP/Mem (using PIP.COM).

The built-in drive A works correctly

I also noticed that access to drive A is related to the activity of drive B (the diode blinks) and vice versa - drive B activity causes some activity of drive B.

I checked the cable with a multimeter, tightened it again twice...

I'm out of ideas.

PS: I also have Greaseweazle and I can finally connect the 3" drive to it and copy the disk images, but I'm not sure what cable I need (although I ordered IDC26 plugs just in case) - similar to here? https://www.fvempel.nl/3pc.html

I have until Friday to do it, then the disks will go back to the archive and probably be forgotten there or demagnetized after a few years.
I

 

[cj7hawk]

You need to make a circuit up to OR both drive select and motor enable for the GOTEK before feeding the signal back into the GOTEK or both will select as there's only one motor enable, and the Gotek recognizes it and enables the Gotek, causing both drives to read at the same time most likely - same on Amstrad PCW9512.

Once you do that, you can move the files to the Gotek. I have some PC software also that will let you migrate from Gotek Amstrad files to the PC as well and can read DSK format

 

[GeoffB17]

I take it that you don't have any spare 3" disks, if you could use the standard facilities of the CPC to copy the disks then it would remove the time pressure.

If you can create images, then you're OK. I too have means to move data between 3" disks, or .DSK images of 3" disks, and PC. The GOTEK default images (.HFE I think) would be much more of a problem.

The problems you report do seem to relate to both drives (A and B) trying to be active together.

Geoff

 

[GeoffB17]

Just thinking. Have you determined what the files are on the 3" disks. If they're ASCII text, then no problem, they can be read OK when got onto a PC. If they are created on the CPC using CPC software, then they might need similar to be read. Suitable CPC emulators might help, or you might need to convert the files on the CPC and THEN copy them to a PC readable media. When I've been asked to copy PCW LocoScript WP files from PCW to PC, I've needed to do the latter, change the files to standard ASCII first.

Geoff

 

[cj7hawk]

I take it that you don't have any spare 3" disks, if you could use the standard facilities of the CPC to copy the disks then it would remove the time pressure.

If you can create images, then you're OK. I too have means to move data between 3" disks, or .DSK images of 3" disks, and PC. The GOTEK default images (.HFE I think) would be much more of a problem.

The problems you report do seem to relate to both drives (A and B) trying to be active together.

Geoff

Hi Geoff,

Goteks and Amstrads tend to use the default Amstrad DSK image file, and can be up to 720K in size without issue. I wrote some software that allows these files to be read directly onto a PC from the DSK image, so it's not that problematic. I originally wrote it for the ZX Spectrum +3 and the PCW-9512, but it works with other Amstrad disks also. It's a little buggy, but the content of the files is reliable.

There are other ways to do it to - but moving images of the files to .DSK images on a gotek is a pretty useful way to do it. But it does require an additional OR gate to address the select issues on the drive bus.

Greaseweasel could also likely do it, and may be suitable for creating disk images, but they will still need to be accessed to get the data from them. I have a bunch of Osborne disks I greaseweasel'ed into files that I want to reconstruct data from and will write a program to just "dearchive" them later. As long as they have good binary images in a sort of LBA mode, that's fine. Amstrad skew is well known.

David.

 

[HanJammer]

I take it that you don't have any spare 3" disks, if you could use the standard facilities of the CPC to copy the disks then it would remove the time pressure.

If you can create images, then you're OK. I too have means to move data between 3" disks, or .DSK images of 3" disks, and PC. The GOTEK default images (.HFE I think) would be much more of a problem.

The problems you report do seem to relate to both drives (A and B) trying to be active together.

Geoff

I do have spare 3" disks. That's actually kind of good idea, although I don't have secondary drive, I'm not sure if it's possible to copy disk to disk in the same drive as it would require to fit all 180kB into 128kB memory of the computer...

Just thinking. Have you determined what the files are on the 3" disks. If they're ASCII text, then no problem, they can be read OK when got onto a PC. If they are created on the CPC using CPC software, then they might need similar to be read. Suitable CPC emulators might help, or you might need to convert the files on the CPC and THEN copy them to a PC readable media. When I've been asked to copy PCW LocoScript WP files from PCW to PC, I've needed to do the latter, change the files to standard ASCII first.

Geoff

My guess is the files were created in TeX on CPC (some of them have .TEX extension)
But that's not much of a problem I think - I can create a Python software to convert them if they won't open in LateX or something or like you said - use emulators and simply OCR screenshots :D

GOTEK (FlashFloppy) reads EDSK (.dsk) images without any problem (like I said I can list contents and I was even able to copy single basic file from a floppy to GOTEK image, but I was able to do it only once).

You need to make a circuit up to OR both drive select and motor enable for the GOTEK before feeding the signal back into the GOTEK or both will select as there's only one motor enable, and the Gotek recognizes it and enables the Gotek, causing both drives to read at the same time most likely - same on Amstrad PCW9512.

Once you do that, you can move the files to the Gotek. I have some PC software also that will let you migrate from Gotek Amstrad files to the PC as well and can read DSK format

Sorry I'm not sure what you mean by "You need to make a circuit up to OR both drive select and motor enable for the GOTEK before feeding the signal back into the GOTEK". I don't know what exactly circuit you have in mind (any diagrams available?) Also all sources available to me (including a guy who was helping me initially) state that on CPC6128 you simply hook up external drive to the connector with a ribbon cable - if it's UK CPC6128 then it's straight forward as you simply use straight-through PC ribbon cable and it should work right of the bat. If it's Schneider CPC6128 it's more tricky because german version uses heavy duty centronics connectors and better shielding (which is nice) but none UK accessories work on them and you have to use 36 pin centronics connector. Still easy. GOTEK needs DS1 jumper set and the other jumper removed and it should work just like that. But mine doesn't. And you are right it looks like it tries to read both disks at once, although in case of drive A (floppy drive) it doesn't matter if GOTEK is connected or not - it just works.

Yet another idea I have is to make a ribbon 34pin->26pin ribbon cable (I found a cool guide here: https://wiki-speccy-org.translate.g...l=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp ) and simply hook up the drive to the PC (I got connectors today) using CPC2DiskXP to read the floppies. Although I would prefer not to risk the drive damage in case something goes wrong.

 

[HanJammer]

I made another cable to connect GOTEK to CPC. Same issues. Then I found a spare GOTEK in the cupboard and... guess what. It worked out of the bat. I could run xexor and it reads source disc, tries to write destination disc (some problems there but I guess I will be able to do something about them). Then I noticed this one had jumper set over pins JA and JB - unlike the one I initially used (which was jumpered according to all instructions I found (only DS1 jumper installed). When I set it like this on the drive I originally used - it started working as well.

 

[GeoffB17]

I'm not sure what the CPCs do regarding this, but there should be something. The PCW system (fairly similar) has a prog called DISCKIT which has Format, Copy and Verify options. The Disk Copy process is designed to include an - in effect - Copy A: to A:, and depending on available RAM this will copy as much as it can to RAM, request disk change, copy RAM to the Dest disk, ask for the original disk, repeat for the next block, etc. Should be able to copy 180 k disk in two ( or three ?) parts with 128k RAM. If it's the PCW, the system even calls the first disk A and the second B to make things clearer, the CPC might not do this but should still refer to 'Source Disk' and 'Destination Disk'.

REgarding the doc files, it's a matter of how many codes are used. Not sure about Polish, there may be at least a few special chars that may not translate to another system. Come to think of it, I've got a couple of documents in Polish - just had a look - yes, there are a few accents, and a couple of strange letters, but not enough to be a massive problem (in case you're wondering, I'm also into wargames and military history and the docs relate to Polish Armoured Div in Europe 1944/5).

If you can copy all the disks, then you can return the originals and the time pressure is gone. Also, with extra copies, there is the option that you could send a disk (say one at a time) to someone like me, I could either extract the files to return via email, and/or image the disk directly and return the image - I can do this because the software to produce the image creates a file that is larger than 180k and you do not have that space available but my PCWs have a range of larger B: disks (360k 5.25" or DSDD 3.5" or B: 3" disks). I've sent 3" disks through the post before without problems, incl to Germany.

Geoff

 

[GeoffB17]

Aha - just got your new message. Progress.

If you're making EDSK (Extended DSK images), the software I have will not work with them, so I cannot turn one of those into a disk, directly. I can however access the EDSK in the Joyce emulator, which means I can access/extract the files OK. The utils to create an image, and write an image back to real disk, handle .DSK images only.

Geoff

 

[HanJammer]

Thanks!
Xexor does great job copying, formating etc. I'm just doing it - some disks have errors though, but that's expected I guess... nobody cared for them since the late 80s... I will return with the update about the results... for now I'm moving the files to gotek images

 

[cj7hawk]

When you need to move the files to a PC, if you don't have anything else, then try my old disk editor;

GitHub - cj7hawk/CPM-DSK-Tool: A CP/M DSK Editor/handler for Spectrum and Amstrad DSK format disk images in FreeBASIC

A CP/M DSK Editor/handler for Spectrum and Amstrad DSK format disk images in FreeBASIC - cj7hawk/CPM-DSK-Tool

github.com

You need to compile it under Freebasic, but it will work in Dos, Windows and Linux.

The main problem is that if you copy "disk.txt" to the HDD, the filename is literally "disk txt" with four spaces in the middle. I never got around to finishing the code.

But the file, once renamed, is accurate.

 

[HanJammer]

When you need to move the files to a PC, if you don't have anything else, then try my old disk editor;

GitHub - cj7hawk/CPM-DSK-Tool: A CP/M DSK Editor/handler for Spectrum and Amstrad DSK format disk images in FreeBASIC

A CP/M DSK Editor/handler for Spectrum and Amstrad DSK format disk images in FreeBASIC - cj7hawk/CPM-DSK-Tool

github.com

You need to compile it under Freebasic, but it will work in Dos, Windows and Linux.

The main problem is that if you copy "disk.txt" to the HDD, the filename is literally "disk txt" with four spaces in the middle. I never got around to finishing the code.

But the file, once renamed, is accurate.

thanks.

I copied all I could to the GOTEK images. However I noticed the XEXOR tried to access track 40-44 on most of the disks (while the disk/drive has only 40 tracks but goes upto 39 during format - maybe because it's counting from 0) so some of the files couldn't be copied. While all disks are CF2s single sided I guess they could have been formatted in some slightly other computer than CPC6128 - Spectrum +3 maybe? Or one of the PCWs?

 

[HanJammer]

That's how sample file looks on the PC - it's mostly readable even like that. "JOY.." in the header is interesting (form JOYCE maybe?). Any idea what kind of software might have been used to create those? I have a feeling they were created rather on the earlier PCW than on the CPC...

 

[cj7hawk]

Locoscript maybe?

You can load it into a joyce emulator to find out -

 

[cj7hawk]

Just a thought - if they were created on a later PCW9512, they might be double sided double density disks.

 

[HanJammer]

Just a thought - if they were created on a later PCW9512, they might be double sided double density disks.

Yes, it is very likely they are in the LocoScript format (JOY seems to be dead giveaway) and likely created on PCW. Floppies are marked as CF2 single sided although maybe it was possible to format single density single sided floppies as double density double sided?

CPC can list the files, although a few couldn't be accessed.

Too bad that few years ago I turned down an offer to buy perfect PCW (as I always treated it as a rather boring typewriter with a screen LOL)...

 

[cj7hawk]

You can often format single density single sided disks to double density double sided in most cases - but not High Density where the media changes.

Well, there's the JOYCE emulator, which will read DSK files and you can boot and load Locoscript and it understands the sector skew. Even if it changes as the disk progresses.

As for PCWs? They often come up at a good price - maybe not in Poland, but definitely in the UK and even sometimes in Australia - but I get better prices from the UK even accounting for the extra postage costs.

8256 and 8512 had the same disk as the AmstradCPC and Spectrum +3 but the 9512 came with the double sided double density disks. Of note, the Spectrum and likely the CPC should recognize the Gotek if you stick in a DSDD image.

Also, you should be able to just copy the files on the disk to a larger (eg 720K ) image on the Gotek - you don't need to use a disk of the same size.

The only thing this will miss though are deleted files, and they can sometimes be more interesting.

David

 

[HanJammer]

You can often format single density single sided disks to double density double sided in most cases - but not High Density where the media changes.

Well, there's the JOYCE emulator, which will read DSK files and you can boot and load Locoscript and it understands the sector skew. Even if it changes as the disk progresses.

As for PCWs? They often come up at a good price - maybe not in Poland, but definitely in the UK and even sometimes in Australia - but I get better prices from the UK even accounting for the extra postage costs.

8256 and 8512 had the same disk as the AmstradCPC and Spectrum +3 but the 9512 came with the double sided double density disks. Of note, the Spectrum and likely the CPC should recognize the Gotek if you stick in a DSDD image.

Also, you should be able to just copy the files on the disk to a larger (eg 720K ) image on the Gotek - you don't need to use a disk of the same size.

The only thing this will miss though are deleted files, and they can sometimes be more interesting.

David

I will have the disks until weekend, maybe I will look some more. I also messaged the guy who offered me the Joyce PCW in 2021 - maybe he still has it (although I don't remember what model it was).

Yes, I will play around with CP/M Box today (https://www.habisoft.com/pcw/) and another Joyce emulator I have I just need to find boot disk images. Ailink (https://ansible.uk/ai/ailink.html) couldn't read the retrieved files though.

 

[cj7hawk]

I will have the disks until weekend, maybe I will look some more. I also messaged the guy who offered me the Joyce PCW in 2021 - maybe he still has it (although I don't remember what model it was).

Yes, I will play around with CP/M Box today (https://www.habisoft.com/pcw/) and another Joyce emulator I have I just need to find boot disk images. Ailink (https://ansible.uk/ai/ailink.html) couldn't read the retrieved files though.

Disk Images

en:sistema:indice [PcwWiki]

www.habisoft.com

Have a good look around that site - It's pretty amazing.

 

[GeoffB17]

Regarding the file image above, yes, the 'JOY' text suggests that this is a LocoScript document. Pity that you show a text representation, as the two bytes immed after the JOY would be two binary numbers, and could well indicate the version of LocoScript used, which could be a hint as to which PCW version is involved.

Regarding the disk being single or double sided, note that either might use CF2 disks, which COULD be formatted as DS. If this works, then the disk is OK for use as DS, if doesn't work, then use as single sided only. Many people used CF2 disks as if they were CF2DD. Both disks came off the same production line, some were tested for CF2DD format, and if they passed they were labelled as CF2DD and sold as such at a higher price, but many disks NOT tested could have passed if tested.

I have CP/M Box as well as Joyce, and I have boot images that work with both if you can't find anything. I'm sure there are enough OK images around though.

Regarding the query about the track numbers, yes, the CF2 format runs from 0 to 39, and that's what shows on the screen during formatting/copying. Another system might show this as 1 to 40. The physical drive and the physical disk COULD be capable of accessing a couple of extra tracks, and some software COULD try to access extra tracks to see if they were there. There are 'special' format versions for PCW disks that use the extra tracks to allow for higher capacity disks (still CF2, but 41 or 42 tracks formatted), but this is not always reliable.

If you have a disk and the label on each side shows different things, then assume this is an A: disk with two separate sides. If the disk shows info on the label on one side ONLY, then it MIGHT have been used as a DS disk, say as drive B: on the 8512, esp if written B:, even if it's a CF2 disk.

Geoff