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The RIFA Experience

'RIFA' capacitors should be connected from Live to Neutral, Live to Earth and Neutral to Earth. Removing them should cause no problems with the functionality of the power supply unit.

Sometimes you find capacitors (C) and inductors (L) in a circuit - sometimes in a little box. See (for example):

View attachment 1277130
View attachment 1277131
If you remove the inductors (or the entire box) - then the incoming mains supply is not connected to the power supply unit itself (unless you make these connections yourself).

However, you are now messing around with the mains supply = risk of black smoke and electrocution. So, unless you know what you are doing, don't do it...

Dave
I have come across supression caps in metal boxes here a couple times but they are like this instead; sealed and unserviceable:
R1345656-01


I forget which machines these were but due to their design I could not replace them with the suppression caps I keep on hand.

From the rear of the machine it looks like any standard IEC plug, until it blows and smoke escapes it.
 
Ah yes, quite prevalent on Commodore PETs etc.

I think you can still buy those - I am sure I have seen them for sale from component suppliers.

Dave
 
Ah yes, quite prevalent on Commodore PETs etc.

I think you can still buy those - I am sure I have seen them for sale from component suppliers.

Dave
Probably are, but Id rather not stock them.. So I guess for now those are the only supression caps I am NOT replacing.
 
Could well be--but where does it appear in the circuit? RIFA (and other film capacitors of this type) were preferred, for example, in many audio circuits. That 1.0 µf cap may be a RIFA safety cap, but it does not look like part of a mains filter circuit, owing to its relative position and value.
 
I'd love some education. This certainly looks like a RIFA filtering capacitor to me (just for clarity, the yellow one that says "RIFA"):

Assuming that's an SMPSU, the big RIFA could be part of the start-up chain* although they are more typically low value electrolytics in that position: They are often mounted near hot-running devices and evetually dry out as they don't have a lot of electrolyte to lose.

Maybe someone decided, in this case, to use a non-electrolytic for that application so it wouldn't fail in the way that electrolytics typically do.

* In a typical SMPSU using a high frequency transformer between the mains side and the low voltage side the control IC runs on a separate output on the low voltage output side of the transformer. This is of course impossible, how could the SMPSU ever start if the controller runs on the PSU's own output? The answer is that it receives a brief 'kick' of DC power derived by dropping the rectified mains voltage, typically through several series resistors with the same high value: The capacitor is used to limit the duration of the start-up power feed to just long enough for the control IC and therefore the SMPSU to get up and running: After that, the control IC continues to run on voltage supplied by one of the output windings.

Failure of one of the start-up components - typically one of the series resistors failing open-circuit or the capacitor drying up - is a common cause for an SMPSU to not start when there are no obviously blown up components and the mains input fuse is intact.

Two other tell-tales for this fault condition are:

-The unit ran continually for days / months / years, but wouldn't come back on after a mains power failure. It is possible for the startup components to die while the PSU is already running, and for that to only make itself known when the mains is eventually removed and reinstated, at which point the PSU will not start.

-When investigating this possible fault, be careful to check for stored charge on the large mains side electrolytic capacitors. If mains has been applied but the SMPSU did not start up, then the mains was removed again, the capacitors will very often still be holding a full charge days, week or months after the PSU was last connected to the mains - unless they happen to have very high value discharge resistor connected across them - they sometimes do, but just as often don't. Finding a stored charge on these capacitors is another possible clue that a startup component has failed. If you see stored voltage on them, use a high value resistor held in well insulated pliers to discharge the capacitors before looking further. An analogue multimeter can also be used to do this, because they draw significant current from the circuit under test - with the added bonus that you can see the DC voltage slowly decreasing for as long as you keep the probes on the capacitor.

So - although your PSU hadn't actually failed, this is one possible reason why removing the cap may have stopped it from working: It may be the start-up capacitor.
 
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'RIFA' capacitors should be connected from Live to Neutral, Live to Earth and Neutral to Earth. Removing them should cause no problems with the functionality of the power supply unit.
Strong warning on this because years later I was forced to go back through quite a few devices where I simply deleted them. Some devices use them to suppress noise backfeeding into the house. I ran into major issues when I started to deploy X10 and while it wasn't all the fault of not replacing Rifa's with modern equivalents, it was an ingredient in why I had signal issues.
 
I agree. Its just so easy to add them back in. They are cheap and its easy. And thats how the circuit was originally designed to work anyway.
 
I’m curious what modern devices would pick up noise from a vintage machine with the x or y filter caps removed.
 
The filters operate both ways. They reduce any mains noise going into the equipment and minimise mains noise coming out.

Dave
 
Assuming that's an SMPSU, the big RIFA could be part of the start-up chain* although they are more typically low value electrolytics in that position: They are often mounted near hot-running devices and evetually dry out as they don't have a lot of electrolyte to lose.

Maybe someone decided, in this case, to use a non-electrolytic for that application so it wouldn't fail in the way that electrolytics typically do.

* In a typical SMPSU using a high frequency transformer between the mains side and the low voltage side the control IC runs on a separate output on the low voltage output side of the transformer. This is of course impossible, how could the SMPSU ever start if the controller runs on the PSU's own output? The answer is that it receives a brief 'kick' of DC power derived by dropping the rectified mains voltage, typically through several series resistors with the same high value: The capacitor is used to limit the duration of the start-up power feed to just long enough for the control IC and therefore the SMPSU to get up and running: After that, the control IC continues to run on voltage supplied by one of the output windings.

Failure of one of the start-up components - typically one of the series resistors failing open-circuit or the capacitor drying up - is a common cause for an SMPSU to not start when there are no obviously blown up components and the mains input fuse is intact.

Two other tell-tales for this fault condition are:

-The unit ran continually for days / months / years, but wouldn't come back on after a mains power failure. It is possible for the startup components to die while the PSU is already running, and for that to only make itself known when the mains is eventually removed and reinstated, at which point the PSU will not start.

-When investigating this possible fault, be careful to check for stored charge on the large mains side electrolytic capacitors. If mains has been applied but the SMPSU did not start up, then the mains was removed again, the capacitors will very often still be holding a full charge days, week or months after the PSU was last connected to the mains - unless they happen to have very high value discharge resistor connected across them - they sometimes do, but just as often don't. Finding a stored charge on these capacitors is another possible clue that a startup component has failed. If you see stored voltage on them, use a high value resistor held in well insulated pliers to discharge the capacitors before looking further. An analogue multimeter can also be used to do this, because they draw significant current from the circuit under test - with the added bonus that you can see the DC voltage slowly decreasing for as long as you keep the probes on the capacitor.

So - although your PSU hadn't actually failed, this is one possible reason why removing the cap may have stopped it from working: It may be the start-up capacitor.

Thanks for the discussion. I'll poke around some more when I get the replacement caps tomorrow and see what I can figure out. I think the important point for me is that the often-spouted wisdom of "RIFAs can be removed" isn't always correct. I've read that, when used in DC applications, RIFAs may be less likely to go bad than when used in the typical AC application.

mike
 
RIFA or not, the application matters. I found this YT clip to be very interesting:
Should we just refer to them as "epoxy-encapsulated metallized paper" capacitors? Even WiMa caps that are similarly encapsulated have similar rates in failure.
 
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As noted above, we should not be saying RIFA as thats a brand of capacitor when we normally mean a mains input filter capacitors.
Should we just refer to them as "epoxy-encapsulated metallized paper" capacitors? Even WiMa caps that are similarly encapsulated have similar rates in failure.
'... the horse has bolted'.

:) Good thing that my surname is not Rifa.

:) I wonder how long it takes before formal education (degree in electrical engineering, etc.) starts using 'RIFA capacitor' ?
 
:) I wonder how long it takes before formal education (degree in electrical engineering, etc.) starts using 'RIFA capacitor' ?
:) Right now, some young students that are part way though an electrical degree, are possibly saying to the lecturer, "We have just finished the capacitor subject, but you left out RIFA capacitors."
 
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