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XT-clone data exchange

A

Arabski

Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2011
Messages
15
Location
Poland
Hi everybody :D I've been reading the forums for some time now, and decided to finally register. I really like old machines, but that's not the only reason for joining. I recently bought an XT clone that turned out to be very much alive, but at the same time quite problematic. Here's why:

I want to be able to transfer data back and forth, but of the things I already tried none are working very well. Materials used:

XT - 20MB ST-124, 2x 360KB floppies
other machines - 1.44MB 3.5 drives, 1.2MB 5.25 drives
load of 5.25 diskettes - all but one HD
one DD 5.25 360K floppy - half-ridden with bad sectors
crosslinked serial cable
crosslinked parallel cable
Norton Commander 3.0 (or 3.3) and 5.0

What I did so far:

At first machine was stopping at "Non-system disk bla bla". I was able to see what is on hard disk, by creating skeletal boot floppy of MS-DOS 5 on broken DD disk. It turned out, that the data is there but core OS files are missing (io.sys etc.). That was easy - SYS C: - and machine was back in business. But... I wanted to transfer some files and problems started. Obviously moving data around on half of DD disk is a no-go, so I tried NC's cable connection. Failed. Both computers involved used the same old version - I pulled it from XT and put on another machine (still using that damn DD disk). They just sit and wait for connection forever. I wanted to use LPT cable (better speed) but this old NC only supports COM cables. OK - I got newer NC 5 and painstakingly transferred it bit by bit to XT. But it does not work! Main screen is displayed and computer hangs :mad:

So I got couple of questions:

Why serial link is not working? Is it possible that old and new UARTs have trouble talking to each other? Cable is 100% working - I use it for serial console access.

Are you able to run NC 5 on XT-class hardware and it's only me, or it needs 286?

What else can I use to create direct cable connection? Tips like "install DOS 6 and use Interlink" are pointless, because of only 180KB of usable space on my *only* DD disk :mad:

Is it possible to reformat 5.25 HD disks to DD disks? With 3.5 inchers it's easy - just cover the hole, but with 5.25? I tried reformatting couple of them, but every time I get "Track 0 bad" - and they format to 1.2M just fine afterwards!

All this is like going in circles... Can you kind people help me out a little with this mess? Regards - Bartek :D
 
How much RAM is in it? I put mind on the network and access shares directly from Windows Server just fine... but it needs 640KB RAM (and a NIC of course).
 
Yeah, you can't use HD diskettes as DD - the media is far too different. It only works on 3.5" floppies because the coercivity of that media is pretty similar between DD and HD. 5 1/4" disks are another story.

Obviously, the simple thing to do would be to find more DD floppies.

Another thing I would try is Kermit - it's a terminal program with it's own file transfer protocol. It's readily available for all platforms, and it's reliable. I use it for transferring files between machines all the time. And it's small enough it should fit on half a DD disk...

One thing you may have noticed is that it's kind of unreliable writing 360k floppies in a 1.2mb drive. This is because the 360k drive has a wider head, since it only is intended to put 40 tracks on the disk. 1.2mb drives have a narrower head, since they use 80 tracks. To write a 40 track disk in an 80 track drive, it simply double-steps. So, invariably, if you have a 360k disk formatted in a 360k drive, and try to write to it again in a 1.2mb drive, it won't always erase/overwrite the entire width of the track, and it gets corrupt. Re-formatting the disk in a 360k drive, or bulk erasing the disk will help.

-Ian
 
Arabski said:
Are you able to run NC 5 on XT-class hardware and it's only me, or it needs 286?
Click to expand...

Nope. NC 3 is the highest version that will run on an XT. I have it installed on my machine. In order to use the data transfer aspect of NC the version on the target machine and the the source machine have to be the same, this is why I have both NC 5 and NC 3 on my 486 machine. This does mean that you are unfortunately limited to serial transfer rates on the XT.

Arabski said:
Why serial link is not working? Is it possible that old and new UARTs have trouble talking to each other? Cable is 100% working - I use it for serial console access.
Click to expand...

Make sure your cable is the correct one for this. I do not think a straight through cable would work. Here is a picture of how the cable should be wired:
800px-D9_Null_Modem_Wiring.png


Once you get the right cable and get the same version of NC running on both machines it should be very simple to get data from one machine to the other. I found that putting a 1.44mb drive into my XT made data transfer so much easier, it means I only use the laplink transfer if I want to get more than 2mb or so onto the XT, which is very rare because most apps and games for that class of hardware is usually made to fit into 360k or smaller.
 
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pearce_jj said:
How much RAM is in it? I put mind on the network and access shares directly from Windows Server just fine... but it needs 640KB RAM (and a NIC of course).
Click to expand...

Yeah, this works ok with some issues though. As you said it is very memory intensive, but it also does not work with Windows 2k, XP or 2003 shares (only 9x/Me shares). I also found this method to be a bit difficult to actually get working.

Another option is to simply use a DOS FTP client, and run a small FTP server on another machine. This is a lot less memory intensive, but I still prefer my 1.44mb drive in the XT it works beautifully!
 
Wow, lotsa answers :D

@pearce_jj
It has 640K. But I think I would have a hard time finding 8bit ISA NIC with RJ45 connector. I have some 3Com cards, but they are all 16bit. I don't suppose they would work.

@RetroHacker_
Too bad about 5.25... I thought I could use them somehow. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to find DD disks in here. Retro market is small and not so exotic as I would wish ;)
About the problems with 1.2 <-> 360 drives - I am aware of this, and only because I put one of the 360K drives in a newer machine I was able to conjure up that boot floppy I wrote about.
I think I'll look into kermit - it sounds promising.

@lutiana
I'm 100% sure that cable is a correct one. Serial console requires crosswiring, and since the very same cable works with other machines it has to be OK.
Once you get the right cable and get the same version of NC running on both machines it should be very simple
Click to expand...
I did exactly that - and it's not working.

How were you able to put HD drive in XT? I guess it requires some additional hardware?

Actually putting DOS machine on Samba network is quite easy. Article is in polish, but there is a lot of screenshots -> http://return.dnsalias.net/wiki/index.php/DOS_-_klient_MS_Net Unfortunately, I don't have a 8bit NIC.
 
I still like using a plain old network card on the XT. There are many software options (I use MSLANMAN with NetBEUI). No problems at all networking with other Windoze systems (provided that protocol is installed).
 
Grab a network card and a copy of Mike Brutman's mTCP package -- great FTP client in there! You can use FileZilla or another Windows FTP program that also includes a server on the other end, or the mTCP FTP server if it's a DOS machine. (if it's a UNIX machine, I bet you already know how to run a FTP server!) I'd recommend a NE1000 if you can find one, I've had good results with the two I use.

As to DSDD 360K disks, PM me if you'd like to buy some. I bought a NOS factory bulk pack of 1000 and have been selling off the extras. Really good prices, too :)
 
Arabski said:
@lutiana
I'm 100% sure that cable is a correct one. Serial console requires crosswiring, and since the very same cable works with other machines it has to be OK.

I did exactly that - and it's not working.

How were you able to put HD drive in XT? I guess it requires some additional hardware?

.
Click to expand...

Some 16bit nics will work in 8bit slots. But 8 bit NICs are not that hard to find:
http://cgi.ebay.com/3Com-8Bit-ISA-E...368?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563d2d0650
http://cgi.ebay.com/CNET-CN100E-eth...869?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aa9aefac5

I got my hands on a replacement floppy controller card with its own bios. It supports 360k, 1.2mb, 720k and 1.44mb drives. So I have a 1.44 set as A: and a 360k as b: works great. There are a few on E-bay, but they are all over priced. There is a way to do it with software. http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/archive/index.php/t-9661.html - I tried it and it does work (though not for booting from HD disks) and it does chew a fair amount of RAM.

I'll have to try the SAMBA thing with one of my DOS boxes.
 
Few ideas:

1. Connect 3.5" floppy drive your XT and use 1.44 MiB diskettes formatted to 720 KiB...
2. Plug an ISA multi-io controller (ones that were used in AT clones), connect 3.5" floppy drive to it, install 2M-XBIOS. It will work with 1.44 MiB
3. Somebody already mentioned XT-IDE... it is more expensive than previous two ideas, but better if you want to transfer more data, or even replace your existing HDD with bigger and better IDE / compact flash.
 
OK, so to recap a little...

Serial port on the machine works - I was able to display text files on my VT510 connected to it. I have to investigate the NC3 serial link issue further.
I think I'll pas on a NIC - don't feel like hunting for one now, and would like to solve this with hardware I have, rather than with one that I'll have to buy.
This 2M-XBIOS thing looks promising - I have some old ISA-IDE controllers so this one is definitely worth a try.

Thanks everybody for your input. Next time I'll be around my machines, I'll test my options and get back to you. Greetings.
 
With an AT multi-IO card you will get better serial ports too... Usually these cards have 16450-like UARTs that can go up to 115200 bps instead of 8250 UART (and I think 38400 bps) you probably have in the XT.
In general all devices except IDE on multi-IO card will work in 8-bit XT slot.
 
I don't understand why Interlink is not an option; if I understand correctly both machines have hard disks so why is the floppy disk size relevant?

Do a remote install using the null-modem cable, and once it's installed use the parallel laplink cable for added speed; DOS versions are not really important unless it's really old or you're running Windows XP or later (in which case yo make a bootable DOS disk).

What am I missing here?
 
i'm with everybody else suggesting an ethernet card for it. by far the least-hassle way to do transfers. plus that opens up options to get it on the internet. like was said, a good package is mbbrutman's mTCP stuff. very good stuff, including an IRC client. i have an IRC client i wrote for DOS about 5 years ago on my web site as well, but on an XT-style machine mbbrutman's will be better. mine is a bit slow on the screen updates. i wrote it in QuickBASIC. i'm thinking of re-doing it in C, however.
 
Mike Chambers said:
i'm with everybody else suggesting an ethernet card for it. by far the least-hassle way to do transfers. plus that opens up options to get it on the internet. like was said, a good package is mbbrutman's mTCP stuff. very good stuff, including an IRC client. i have an IRC client i wrote for DOS about 5 years ago on my web site as well, but on an XT-style machine mbbrutman's will be better. mine is a bit slow on the screen updates. i wrote it in QuickBASIC. i'm thinking of re-doing it in C, however.
Click to expand...
Umm, not everybody else...

I'm gonna argue again that IMO Interlink is much less hassle than ethernet if you're only doing transfers, especially if you already have the cables, don't have compatible disk drives and therefore can't copy the ethernet drivers and client, etc. Besides, he told us that he wants to use what he has and not buy anything.

Once he has a way to transfer files onto the client system (and has bought a card or adapter) then ethernet becomes a viable option.
 
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MikeS said:
I don't understand why Interlink is not an option; if I understand correctly both machines have hard disks so why is the floppy disk size relevant?
Click to expand...

I personally have never used interlnk since I always had access to Norton Commander, which not only does it flawlessly it gives you a very intuitive 2 panel display to do it in, one side is local the other is remote.
 
lutiana said:
I personally have never used interlnk since I always had access to Norton Commander, which not only does it flawlessly it gives you a very intuitive 2 panel display to do it in, one side is local the other is remote.
Click to expand...
NC is pretty well the same as LapLink and shares its two-pane paradigm, whereas InterLink just adds additional drive letters representing the remote drives like a 'real' network. I believe they all had a remote install option; the only advantage of interLink is that it came standard with the later MS-DOS versions.
 
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Chuck(G) said:
Maybe, but it's hard to beat the raw speed and convenience of a NIC--and its ability to work with just about any other OS platform.
Click to expand...
Of course, but if you don't have any way to get the drivers and client on to the client system in the first place then Interlink/Laplink/NC's remote install is really the only practical option to get started. And I'm not disputing that it's much faster and more convenient (once installed) but installing and configuring an ethernet card and connection is definitely more hassle than a null-modem cable, not "by far the least hassle".
 
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